Maybe going turbo?
Oct 28, 2014, 09:49 PM
#16
valid concern, but no one here that i know if is having ring problems at 200,000km.
I'm not trying to shoot down your advice, but more so making a point that over-doing it, could be even more costly...
rebuilding the block with OEM parts "just in case" still leaves you with the same potential vulnerabilities as an untouched factory block...this will leave you wondering if you should build the block, but then the age old question, "how much power?". If you want to make 300whp, then a built block isn't really necessary, and if you go much higher, like 4-500whp or more, which is more in the realm of what a built block would actually be needed for, then you'll need to spend even more money, because now you're looking at a much larger turbo (good quality big turbos aren't cheap), a stage 4 or 5 clutch, and hopefully much better brakes than stock (like brembo or willwood), and it will be a pain in the *** to daily drive, not to mention now you're looking at much higher stage axles, a proper LSD such as a quaife would be basically manitory, not just for traction, but durability. You'll probably be rebuilding transmissions annually if you race it (if you don't race it, then why even bother). Even things like wheel studs, and maybe even hubs would need to be higher strength. Even tires would need to be more expensive ultra high performance super soft, super fast wearing rubber compounds, that you need to replace often, to even get any traction.
ultimately, turbocharging a non turbo car is the same as running very high boost in a stock turbo car, everything from engine internals, to drivetrain parts are at a much higher risk of stress related failure, and you need to be prepared for that...you know traction and braking need to be adressed as well, so you need to take that into account...
a lot of things in my mod list are things i pretty well HAD to get to support the power i'm making...
for 250-300whp:
obviously aside from all the stuff you'll need to actually make a working turbo system. (with rough price estimates based on memory)
head studs ($150)
solid motor mounts ($150)
stage 2 or 3 clutch ($650)
limited slip differential (normally $600-1200, depending on type)
stronger axles (at least $400)
performance brake pads (probably at least $120, not to mention new rotors is a good idea)
racing DOT 4 fluid, and braided steel flex lines recommended (say $140)
high performance tires (200 or lower treadwear rating, wider than stock if possible) (at least $600 for a set)
that's like $3,000...and people think that's too much to pay for a turbo kit...now imagine the labour cost for installations, rebuilds and maintenance if you're not doing it yourself...i'm not trying to scare you, and obviously i didn't start out running 14psi, so it's not like i needed all this stuff at once...but over the years...my 216whp dyno run read 6.5psi at 6,000rpm, and it felt awesome...
i've already stated that a valve job and head gasket is a good place to start...and timing belt since you're pulling the head...if you decide to install the studs without removing the head, then initially you WILL need head studs and the clutch...bare minimum...
I'm not trying to shoot down your advice, but more so making a point that over-doing it, could be even more costly...
rebuilding the block with OEM parts "just in case" still leaves you with the same potential vulnerabilities as an untouched factory block...this will leave you wondering if you should build the block, but then the age old question, "how much power?". If you want to make 300whp, then a built block isn't really necessary, and if you go much higher, like 4-500whp or more, which is more in the realm of what a built block would actually be needed for, then you'll need to spend even more money, because now you're looking at a much larger turbo (good quality big turbos aren't cheap), a stage 4 or 5 clutch, and hopefully much better brakes than stock (like brembo or willwood), and it will be a pain in the *** to daily drive, not to mention now you're looking at much higher stage axles, a proper LSD such as a quaife would be basically manitory, not just for traction, but durability. You'll probably be rebuilding transmissions annually if you race it (if you don't race it, then why even bother). Even things like wheel studs, and maybe even hubs would need to be higher strength. Even tires would need to be more expensive ultra high performance super soft, super fast wearing rubber compounds, that you need to replace often, to even get any traction.
ultimately, turbocharging a non turbo car is the same as running very high boost in a stock turbo car, everything from engine internals, to drivetrain parts are at a much higher risk of stress related failure, and you need to be prepared for that...you know traction and braking need to be adressed as well, so you need to take that into account...
a lot of things in my mod list are things i pretty well HAD to get to support the power i'm making...
for 250-300whp:
obviously aside from all the stuff you'll need to actually make a working turbo system. (with rough price estimates based on memory)
head studs ($150)
solid motor mounts ($150)
stage 2 or 3 clutch ($650)
limited slip differential (normally $600-1200, depending on type)
stronger axles (at least $400)
performance brake pads (probably at least $120, not to mention new rotors is a good idea)
racing DOT 4 fluid, and braided steel flex lines recommended (say $140)
high performance tires (200 or lower treadwear rating, wider than stock if possible) (at least $600 for a set)
that's like $3,000...and people think that's too much to pay for a turbo kit...now imagine the labour cost for installations, rebuilds and maintenance if you're not doing it yourself...i'm not trying to scare you, and obviously i didn't start out running 14psi, so it's not like i needed all this stuff at once...but over the years...my 216whp dyno run read 6.5psi at 6,000rpm, and it felt awesome...
i've already stated that a valve job and head gasket is a good place to start...and timing belt since you're pulling the head...if you decide to install the studs without removing the head, then initially you WILL need head studs and the clutch...bare minimum...
Last edited by CrAnSwIcK; Oct 28, 2014 at 10:09 PM.
Oct 29, 2014, 09:28 AM
#17
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Im not looking for anything crazy. Id be fine at 7psi at 220whp. That would be perfect for me. It is a daily and i just want something just fast enough to say and reliable. Its not like im tracking much with it or anything
Oct 29, 2014, 04:27 PM
#19
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I'm also in the process of building a 1985 Ford Merkur. I just slammed a holset hy35 on it. So I have the turbo that was already on it. Wonder if it would work.
Not to sure looks like a t3 turbo.
Not to sure looks like a t3 turbo.
Last edited by JTCB; Oct 29, 2014 at 04:33 PM.
Oct 29, 2014, 04:37 PM
#20
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I say build the block and clean the head. You can always build the head later and if you still burn oil after the block build you won't have to drop the entire engine again the make repairs.
Oct 29, 2014, 05:08 PM
#21
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Hmm at this point I wonder how much I could pick up a 4g69 at a scrapyard and have it rebuilt. I could just stick with stock parts since I dont plan on boosting the crap out of it. I really dont feel like spending over 500$ on pistons.
Oct 29, 2014, 08:30 PM
#22
so much this!!!
but if you'd be happy with 220whp (won't last long, so a spare engine to build over time on the side might not be a bad idea, for when 300whp isn't good enough anymore) then there's no point in building a block for anything under 300whp.
but if you'd be happy with 220whp (won't last long, so a spare engine to build over time on the side might not be a bad idea, for when 300whp isn't good enough anymore) then there's no point in building a block for anything under 300whp.
Oct 30, 2014, 05:57 AM
#23
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I'm not quite sure what size that turbo is. If ever going from natural aspiration to forced induction you should built the block to handle a turbo setup.
For instance the 4g63 block come NA and turbo, the turbo block has things like oil squirters that squirts oil on the underside of the pistons.
I know you plan to keep the boost at a certain level but boost controllers fail too and you don't want to loose an engine over a failed boost controller.
the safe thing to do is build an engine on the side and when its built drop it in.
For instance the 4g63 block come NA and turbo, the turbo block has things like oil squirters that squirts oil on the underside of the pistons.
I know you plan to keep the boost at a certain level but boost controllers fail too and you don't want to loose an engine over a failed boost controller.
the safe thing to do is build an engine on the side and when its built drop it in.
Oct 30, 2014, 08:28 AM
#24
I'm not quite sure what size that turbo is. If ever going from natural aspiration to forced induction you should built the block to handle a turbo setup.
For instance the 4g63 block come NA and turbo, the turbo block has things like oil squirters that squirts oil on the underside of the pistons.
I know you plan to keep the boost at a certain level but boost controllers fail too and you don't want to loose an engine over a failed boost controller.
the safe thing to do is build an engine on the side and when its built drop it in.
For instance the 4g63 block come NA and turbo, the turbo block has things like oil squirters that squirts oil on the underside of the pistons.
I know you plan to keep the boost at a certain level but boost controllers fail too and you don't want to loose an engine over a failed boost controller.
the safe thing to do is build an engine on the side and when its built drop it in.
failed wastegate and boost controllers aren't really an issue for me...with Fastworks tuning software you have "boost cut", where i can set a maximum boost level, and if that it detected by the MAP sensor, then the engine cuts out...the beauty of hackish's work is that built in safety features from the factory remain in the ECU, and he's added others related to forced induction. That's why i always recommend this method of OEM ECU tuning for turbo conversions.
These engines aren't as weak as they've been made out to be. I've been turbocharged for a few years now...and i haven't had any problems at all...i've done two road trips from ontario to Nova Scotia, i drove 11 hours to Ohio, raced all three days at the shootout in 2013, then drove back, at home i race usually twice a month, and i do a WOT 3rd gear pull every day on my way to an from work (highway merge). Also spirited country driving...nearly 1/4 of my engine's mileage has been spent running more boost than most people thought possible. We will see how it goes next year with water/meth...
To JTCB: pretty much any turbo will work...it's just a question of how well? i see the compressor has a .60 a/r but what other specs do you have on it?
Last edited by CrAnSwIcK; Oct 30, 2014 at 08:46 AM.
Oct 30, 2014, 08:46 AM
#25
I've been turbocharged for a few years now...and i haven't had any problems at all...i've done two road trips from ontario to Nova Scotia, i drove 11 hours to Ohio, raced all three days at the shootout in 2013, then drove back, at home i race usually twice a month, and i do a WOT 3rd gear pull every day on my way to an from work (highway merge). Also spirited country driving...nearly 1/4 of my engine's mileage has been spent running more boost than most people thought possible. We will see how it goes next year with water/meth...
Oct 30, 2014, 10:18 PM
#26
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@cranswick ill have to check it out tomorrow. I'm really liking the ideal of trying to find a spare engine at a scrapyard and start building it. Do a quick rebuild job on my current head and run it like that till it blows and swap in the new engine after. I wonder how much an engine would go at the scrapyard or just to find a block and swap in the head that will be rebuilt from my current engine to save every penny possible.
Oct 31, 2014, 05:19 AM
#27
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Water/Meth sounds fun!!!
@JTCB Yeah built a block in you garage or living room like I did for that matter. I did it but sold the block (it was a 420a btw for the eclipse) when I was close to finishing. So either you can learn the in's and out's of your engine and have beautiful block or someone makes you a great offer and sell it.
Either way you learn.
@JTCB Yeah built a block in you garage or living room like I did for that matter. I did it but sold the block (it was a 420a btw for the eclipse) when I was close to finishing. So either you can learn the in's and out's of your engine and have beautiful block or someone makes you a great offer and sell it.
Either way you learn.
Nov 4, 2014, 10:33 AM
#28
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So the latest news. I've talked to my mechanic and he told me for about 1500$ the head is pretty much fully rebuilt (what needs to be anyways) and the block would be pretty much brand new except for pistons. Seems like a pretty descent price to me. What do you guys think?
Nov 5, 2014, 03:23 AM
#29
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Maybe I missed something. Are you buying a new engine or is your mechanic building you an engine or is he selling you an used engine?
Nov 5, 2014, 06:10 PM
#30
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I might also have a cheaper alternative with a neighbor of mine. I would have to go chat with him and see if hes up for the rebuild. So I guess for about 2gs id have a fully rebuilt engine. Is it worth it?
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