Tech tips on AWD drift.
Nov 11, 2014, 07:12 PM
#17
Newbie
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: colorado
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oooookay, here we go...
This is Petri dish showing how bad information can breed on the internet. First of all, drifting is not fast on dry asphalt. It's just not and never will be, all things equal. When things get very slick (read: mud, snow, gravel) the hardest thing to do with your car is get it to rotate, therefore rally guys will get the car turned early with some oversteer so their job is easier on the exit. This is especially true with intrinsically front-heavy cars like the Evo. That ton of engine, transmission, and drivetrain up front will always be a weak link in the platform.
Have you ever seen a bunch of professional drivers winning races sideways on pavement? Not very often. There's a popular V8 Supercar video out right now where the whole field is slipping and sliding around. I think that has more to do with the issues those cars have in the wet-- a spool diff being top of that list-- than does a proper driving technique with the average race car. I do have a good amount of experience driving production-based race cars in the wet and dry. I can assure you, it is definitely not faster slide the car than it is to drive under the limit of traction.
Now, if you were so inclined to get your Evo sideways, you will see a lot of step-by-step lessons on how to do it, but none are very good at explaining why. I've worked at the Evo X school in Sonoma from its conception to its demise, and can attest to the fact that Evos will go sideways based on a formula, not because all the stars aligned and you hopped 3 times on your right foot facing due south.
Here's the thing, when you brake, you load up the front of your car. This means there is a lot more weight, and therefore useable traction on the front tires than the rear. The Evo has a lot of wheel travel to emphasize this factor. If you weren't exceeding your front tire traction from braking alone, and you were to turn the wheel, the front would likely bite the road relatively well compared to the rear. Another way of saying this, is that by braking, you have induced a possibility for oversteer. With enough energy in the equation, you will see the back end step out. At high enough speed, with most Evos, just a lift of the throttle is enough to see a notable drift.
Now, the Scandi Flick, which is used to aggressively get a car sideways, uses spring rebound to do some work for you. When you're turning right, the left side of the car is loaded up. When you suddenly snap the car back to the left, and if you combine the "flick" with some throttle lift or brake, the massive amount of spring rebound throws all the weight to the opposite side, severely under-loading the inside rear tire. It is not uncommon to see an Evo lift the inside rear 6-8" off the ground with a good flick. It is NOT a fast technique, however, but it is fun.
Here's another myth: Throttle makes an Evo slide. Nope. Not without a whole bunch of understeer first. Just as I've explained how brakes load up the nose of the car, throttle loads up the rear. In the same way, a bunch of weight is removed from the front tires, which are trying to change direction in a corner. It is possible to see a slide on slick surfaces with nothing more than a bunch of wheel and WOT, but not without covering a lot (or parking lot) of real estate. You need something to set the rear free before you stop on the go-pedal. The throttle alone will NOT make an Evo slide.
The key, for me, driving Evos on the track or in Autocross, was always to try and time braking and steering so that I'm forcing the car to loosen up. That is to say, as I enter a corner on the brakes, I may trail off the brake a bit slow as I turn the wheel. I may even turn the wheel 5% more aggressively than I normally would. There may even be a secondary dab of the brake just prior to the apex of a corner, if the car didn't rotate as much as I needed. This is not proper race track technique, but does work for the Evo. All Evos, in my experience, when driven on the limit are capable of seeing oversteer. Does a front-heavy AWD car intrinsically understeer? Yes. But Mitsubishi did a lot of work on damper and alignment for the Evo to make it a bit more lively than the average Yukon Denali.
This is Petri dish showing how bad information can breed on the internet. First of all, drifting is not fast on dry asphalt. It's just not and never will be, all things equal. When things get very slick (read: mud, snow, gravel) the hardest thing to do with your car is get it to rotate, therefore rally guys will get the car turned early with some oversteer so their job is easier on the exit. This is especially true with intrinsically front-heavy cars like the Evo. That ton of engine, transmission, and drivetrain up front will always be a weak link in the platform.
Have you ever seen a bunch of professional drivers winning races sideways on pavement? Not very often. There's a popular V8 Supercar video out right now where the whole field is slipping and sliding around. I think that has more to do with the issues those cars have in the wet-- a spool diff being top of that list-- than does a proper driving technique with the average race car. I do have a good amount of experience driving production-based race cars in the wet and dry. I can assure you, it is definitely not faster slide the car than it is to drive under the limit of traction.
Now, if you were so inclined to get your Evo sideways, you will see a lot of step-by-step lessons on how to do it, but none are very good at explaining why. I've worked at the Evo X school in Sonoma from its conception to its demise, and can attest to the fact that Evos will go sideways based on a formula, not because all the stars aligned and you hopped 3 times on your right foot facing due south.
Here's the thing, when you brake, you load up the front of your car. This means there is a lot more weight, and therefore useable traction on the front tires than the rear. The Evo has a lot of wheel travel to emphasize this factor. If you weren't exceeding your front tire traction from braking alone, and you were to turn the wheel, the front would likely bite the road relatively well compared to the rear. Another way of saying this, is that by braking, you have induced a possibility for oversteer. With enough energy in the equation, you will see the back end step out. At high enough speed, with most Evos, just a lift of the throttle is enough to see a notable drift.
Now, the Scandi Flick, which is used to aggressively get a car sideways, uses spring rebound to do some work for you. When you're turning right, the left side of the car is loaded up. When you suddenly snap the car back to the left, and if you combine the "flick" with some throttle lift or brake, the massive amount of spring rebound throws all the weight to the opposite side, severely under-loading the inside rear tire. It is not uncommon to see an Evo lift the inside rear 6-8" off the ground with a good flick. It is NOT a fast technique, however, but it is fun.
Here's another myth: Throttle makes an Evo slide. Nope. Not without a whole bunch of understeer first. Just as I've explained how brakes load up the nose of the car, throttle loads up the rear. In the same way, a bunch of weight is removed from the front tires, which are trying to change direction in a corner. It is possible to see a slide on slick surfaces with nothing more than a bunch of wheel and WOT, but not without covering a lot (or parking lot) of real estate. You need something to set the rear free before you stop on the go-pedal. The throttle alone will NOT make an Evo slide.
The key, for me, driving Evos on the track or in Autocross, was always to try and time braking and steering so that I'm forcing the car to loosen up. That is to say, as I enter a corner on the brakes, I may trail off the brake a bit slow as I turn the wheel. I may even turn the wheel 5% more aggressively than I normally would. There may even be a secondary dab of the brake just prior to the apex of a corner, if the car didn't rotate as much as I needed. This is not proper race track technique, but does work for the Evo. All Evos, in my experience, when driven on the limit are capable of seeing oversteer. Does a front-heavy AWD car intrinsically understeer? Yes. But Mitsubishi did a lot of work on damper and alignment for the Evo to make it a bit more lively than the average Yukon Denali.
sounds like you have some wheel time but this makes me giggle!
"Here's another myth: Throttle makes an Evo slide. Nope. Not without a whole bunch of understeer first. Just as I've explained how brakes load up the nose of the car, throttle loads up the rear. In the same way, a bunch of weight is removed from the front tires, which are trying to change direction in a corner. It is possible to see a slide on slick surfaces with nothing more than a bunch of wheel and WOT, but not without covering a lot (or parking lot) of real estate. You need something to set the rear free before you stop on the go-pedal. The throttle alone will NOT make an Evo slide."
have you driven a 500+ hp evo with acd flash?
Nov 21, 2014, 10:00 AM
#18
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
If your evo doesn't oversteer on power, you need a rear diff (either restack the stock plates, or get the tre 12 plate), and/or and acd reflash..
Jul 22, 2015, 10:54 PM
#20
sounds like you have some wheel time but this makes me giggle!
"Here's another myth: Throttle makes an Evo slide. Nope. Not without a whole bunch of understeer first. Just as I've explained how brakes load up the nose of the car, throttle loads up the rear. In the same way, a bunch of weight is removed from the front tires, which are trying to change direction in a corner. It is possible to see a slide on slick surfaces with nothing more than a bunch of wheel and WOT, but not without covering a lot (or parking lot) of real estate. You need something to set the rear free before you stop on the go-pedal. The throttle alone will NOT make an Evo slide."
have you driven a 500+ hp evo with acd flash?
"Here's another myth: Throttle makes an Evo slide. Nope. Not without a whole bunch of understeer first. Just as I've explained how brakes load up the nose of the car, throttle loads up the rear. In the same way, a bunch of weight is removed from the front tires, which are trying to change direction in a corner. It is possible to see a slide on slick surfaces with nothing more than a bunch of wheel and WOT, but not without covering a lot (or parking lot) of real estate. You need something to set the rear free before you stop on the go-pedal. The throttle alone will NOT make an Evo slide."
have you driven a 500+ hp evo with acd flash?
i restacked my diff plates and got rid of most of the rake from the chassis. with the way my car is built (smaller turbo, smaller cams), i get throttle-induced over steer to the point where i have to modulate out of turns.
i have to feint in to get it sideways before the turn, but it's really not hard. it's also a lot of fun.
Dec 31, 2015, 12:54 PM
#22
Yeah I gotta get that ACD reflash since I already have restacked plates. In the snow it just understeers.
What I want to know is why no one makes a easy dual use ebrake that doesn't auto ratchet yet it still manual lockable for parking use for the ct9a platform?
What I want to know is why no one makes a easy dual use ebrake that doesn't auto ratchet yet it still manual lockable for parking use for the ct9a platform?
Last edited by Grimgrak; Dec 31, 2015 at 01:08 PM.
Jan 18, 2016, 10:54 AM
#28
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
A hydraulic Ebrake is as simple as putting a master cylinder inline with the brake line that goes to the rear of the car. Cars with ACD should install a smith that unlocks the ACD when the brake is pulled.
Jan 23, 2016, 01:47 PM
#30
sounds like you have some wheel time but this makes me giggle!
"Here's another myth: Throttle makes an Evo slide. Nope. Not without a whole bunch of understeer first. Just as I've explained how brakes load up the nose of the car, throttle loads up the rear. In the same way, a bunch of weight is removed from the front tires, which are trying to change direction in a corner. It is possible to see a slide on slick surfaces with nothing more than a bunch of wheel and WOT, but not without covering a lot (or parking lot) of real estate. You need something to set the rear free before you stop on the go-pedal. The throttle alone will NOT make an Evo slide."
have you driven a 500+ hp evo with acd flash?
"Here's another myth: Throttle makes an Evo slide. Nope. Not without a whole bunch of understeer first. Just as I've explained how brakes load up the nose of the car, throttle loads up the rear. In the same way, a bunch of weight is removed from the front tires, which are trying to change direction in a corner. It is possible to see a slide on slick surfaces with nothing more than a bunch of wheel and WOT, but not without covering a lot (or parking lot) of real estate. You need something to set the rear free before you stop on the go-pedal. The throttle alone will NOT make an Evo slide."
have you driven a 500+ hp evo with acd flash?
