l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

Hey guys,

I'm finally ready to switch over to E85, but I have to decide what injectors to get now. Since I am ultimately going to move to an FP Red sized turbo, I wanted to buy the injectors once, but I wanted to ensure that I bought an injector that people have had decent experience running on pump gas as well.

For a maxed red, 1150cc would suffice for E85 (actually around 1080cc from my math at a gasoline calibrated 12:1 AFR), but since the Bluemax are the 'new' injectors and start at the 1250cc size, I was thinking about giving them a shot. However, I will be on the stock turbo for quite some time and just 'hope' to upgrade to a red soon, but I have no concrete plans at the moment. So, I'm a bit torn between just buying some 1050cc (mrfred has done so much work analyzing these injectors and are more than enough for a maxed stock turbo and work well on pump) and just getting the 1250s and be done and ready for the potential future upgrade.

The only thing holding me back at the moment is the potential pump gas manners of the 1250s. I will be converting to E-85, but plan to run pump gas from time to time to alleviate the injector 'gunk' issue as well as potentially running pump gas during the coldest winter months here in Chicago.

I have searched and only found a thread or two for these particular injectors and none that really talked about idle/drivability/tunability on pump gas. I'm pretty confident I can tune the injectors on pump gas if they can be tuned, but I didn't want to be stuck with something that wouldn't work.

So, anyone here have any pump gas input for the 1250s?


Thanks,
Eric

GST Motorsports

iTrader: (8)

They can be tuned on pump gas but take a little longer than others.

What I have noticed with the BlueMax are that they are luck of the draw on if you get a set that works well or not. I've tuned a set that worke fine with some tweaking and then I tried to tune another set but they work like ****.

The FIC 1450cc's also can work well on pump gas, but the same disclaimer applies.

l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the info, Bryan. Maybe I'll just get some 1050s for now then and upgrade later. I'm still on the fence about that.

Mellon Racing

iTrader: (38)

why not go with the 1200cc PTE, they work great

GST Motorsports

iTrader: (8)

if you want 1000-1200's that tune like butter then look at the RC's.

The 1200's only flow a little more than the 1000's but if you up the pressure they flow at almost full 1200cc.

l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

I'll have to do some research on the other injectors. I have only had FIC in the past.

Also, I forgot where I was reading, but I thought that RC or PTE aren't compatible with E-85 whereas the FIC are. Also, I like the ball and seat design of the FIC injectors. I'm not sure whether the RC or PTE are pintle style or ball and seat.

I'm not opposed to any other injector brand, but I am most familiar with FIC from the past and past research. Thanks for the heads up and the info though.


Edit: Here is where I was reading about the E-85 compatibility (post #56). BTW, this is a great thread on what the e85 injector 'gunk' is. Anyway, RC Eng stated that there injectors are not compatible with e85 and FIC stated that the new bluemax are.

logic

iTrader: (2)

Eric, here's another option, if you're interested. I believe danl here is running them, and Tony@T1 (ID's distributor) was over on Evo-Tech a while back answering questions about them (edit: here's the thread).

A set of those, but with the pressure bumped up to something reasonable (as Bryan suggested), and you're all set (assuming you have enough pump). The advantage in my mind is that you get a set of flow-matched injectors, along with a spec sheet detailing deadtime at standard voltages and pressures (30 through 100psi, if memory serves). Run them at 100psi, and you'd be hard-pressed to run out of injector; now you get to make the pump(s) keep up.

Here's the nabisco thread on them, if you want to hear what the funny flat-engined folks have to say. Here's the spec sheet T1 makes available for themm:



Even if you end up with another set of injectors, Paul@ID's website is worth a read, if only for the education.

l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

logic,

Those definitely sound like a nice set of injectors, but I don't like the idea of running high impedance injectors, having to remove the resistor and rewire.

Creamo3

iTrader: (48)

I used to run the FIC 1150's on both pumpgas and E85 in Chicago winters and was able to get these working perfectly on both fuels. This is in between the two sizes you are looking at and would give you that additional headroom if you were to go bigger on the turbo. Coincidentally, I have a set for sale right now As far as BlueMax injectors go, I'm running the 1450's right now and those were pretty easy to get dialed in as well.

oldevodude

iTrader: (3)

MY current injectors are stated as being Methanol Ethanol compatible .


I went through a few sets of other injectors and when mine were flow tested they were off straight from the manufacturer and they were un-tunable.

Quote from steal316.com about injector types....

"5. Valve design
There are three basic valve designs used with variations on each: pintle, disk, and ball.

The pintle-type valve is the earliest design but still popular. And it is the design used on our cars. The solenoid lifts the pintle out of an orifice to release fuel. For our DOHC models, there is an additional orifice with a "figure 8" design, as can be seen on my web page 2-inj360.htm. The pintle is also visible. The problems with the pintle design include increased chance of clogging in the small orifice area, slower response time because of heavier armatures used to lift the pintle, and reduced service life.

The ball-type injector uses a ball (actually half a sphere) to seal the metering orifice, rather than a pintle. This allows the use of a lighter armature and so response time is faster than for pintle types. There is also less wear for a longer service life. The orifice can be designed with multiple openings for a wider spray pattern plus more fuel can be delivered for a given drive time.

The disk-type injector eliminates the armature and the solenoid acts directly on the flat disk through the core of the injector body. The flat disk rests on a seat that has an orifice in it. This arrangement is even lighter than the ball-type for an even faster response time. This disk and seat design also results in less deposit build up at the orifice and longer service life.

If upgrading our injectors, the turbo owners should consider ball or disk type injectors because the faster response time of the injector (over the pintle style) should partially offset the lack of peak-hold circuitry in our setup. "

MY Vote is for Disc based injectors


PS Some of the Lucas and Bosch injectors were designed from the ground up as Ethanol/methanol or even propane or LP injection as primary function with gasoline as a secondary intent.


Good Luck

oldevodude

iTrader: (3)

Here are some pics. of the multiple nozzles for fuel atomization and distribution and stainless body for corrosion resistance.


PS sorry about quality this was before I bought new camera




No gunk after over 7500 miles of e85



LOL .. If you look closely These required major hand machining (read Dremel) to make them fit the Evo and then I found out later someone could do it for me if I was interested in quantity.

PS to avoid trouble this is not an advertisement nor do I intend to sell these (note to forum police) I'm simply sharing some backyard creativity

SoCal Rally

So, is there a breakdown by manufacturer/product line vs. style (i.e. pintle/ball/disc) of injector produced?

And also a list of which manufacturers approve their injectors for E85 use?

jid2

iTrader: (62)

I'm on the Bluemax 1450's. They are doing both pump gas and E85 for me.

They were somewhat challenging to scale and needed some MAF scaling at idle, but I ended up getting them to work great.

GST Motorsports

iTrader: (8)

I've been running RC's on E85 for 10k miles. Have a bunch of others running E85 through them as well.

I would imagine it's the same as Walboros stance. They haven't tested it on E85 so they are covering their *****.

-Bryan

GST Motorsports

iTrader: (8)

Those look exactly like RC's, in body and nozzle design...