Tilton Twin Disc, Who Has One, Who Installed it, How long, Who Who who...
Jul 20, 2006, 10:07 AM
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Tilton Twin Disc, Who Has One, Who Installed it, How long, Who Who who...
I want to know so I can PM you and talk to you on a personal basis. Please let me know if you have a Tilton Cerametallic Twin Disc for your Evo8. My clutch sheared the hubs off again and it's been 3,000 miles since last time.
Jul 20, 2006, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by dryad001
I installed my own. I have the hybrid though. I heard through the grapevine that tilton is now using treated hubs for the cerametallic discs.
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Jul 20, 2006, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by joeymia
if it helps here is my disc at around 6k miles... Some of the teeth do look like they have taken a beating but it looks bad in this picture because of the lighting I think.
Here is the Organic Disc after I had new clutch material put on
Here is the Organic Disc after I had new clutch material put on
I think your cerametallic looks like it's gonna go. That's how my "good" one-out of the two- looked and that was starting to go.
Is the Organic one on flywheel side or the one that sits more in the tranny bellhousing?
Last edited by TurboSpoolinIns; Jul 20, 2006 at 02:44 PM.
Jul 20, 2006, 02:44 PM
#9
That sucks they are having this problem on the EVO's too. We run them on our drag hondas, and some of my friends report the same thing. The newer disc has a heat treated center section, strange that tilton didn't automatically supply the EVO with the same thing.
Also strange is that I run one of the first tilton twin discs on my Honda with the silver hub (non heat treated) and so far no problems.
Also strange is that I run one of the first tilton twin discs on my Honda with the silver hub (non heat treated) and so far no problems.
Jul 20, 2006, 02:57 PM
#10
Originally Posted by TurboSpoolinIns
I think your cerametallic looks like it's gonna go. That's how my "good" one-out of the two- looked and that was starting to go.
Is the Organic one on flywheel side or the one that sits more in the tranny bellhousing?
Is the Organic one on flywheel side or the one that sits more in the tranny bellhousing?
Jul 21, 2006, 12:16 PM
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The main caused of spline wearing out of hubs are:
1. Misalignment between the engine and transmission/bellhousing. In production cars, alignment is not held to a very tight tolerance because it would be too cost prohibitive (scrapping or reworking a lot parts). Basically, the centerline of the input shaft is not aligned with the centerline of the crankshaft. When there is misalingment, there is uneven load placed on the splines and they wear. Typically, it is not a concern with a single disc OE clutch. The hub in a single disc clutch is a lot longer, allowing the load from misalignment to be spread over a larger area. The sprung hub also compensates some for the misalignment. On a side note, Tilton carbon/carbon clutch uses a single floating hub (drive both discs) that has a long spline area (like the OE clutch).
Due to the design constraints of most twin-plate clutches, the hubs must be shorter. The shorter hubs do not have as much area to spread the load and wear more quickly. Misalignment is exagrated even future the smaller the clutch is. This is why race engine builders relocate the dowels (and make sure the engine block is truely flat) in the back of the engine block to correct for misalignment.
2. Torsional vibrations/harmonics also cause spline wear. When a engine fires, it transmits vibrations. This is why engines have a harmonic dampner and is not a good idea to use a "power pulley". In stock form, the 4G63 already creates a lot of torsional vibrations (compared to other engines).
When modifications are made (cams, higher boost, power pulleys, etc), the torsional viabrations/harmonics change. The change can cause other engine and driveline components to wear more rapidly. The stock harmonic dampner is adequate for a stock engine, but as modifications are performed the stock harmonic dampner may not be adequate. This is why companies like ATI and Fluidampr exist. They produce high quality harmonic dampners for use on modified engines to absord the increased/changed harmonics.
The reason why some have the spline wear problem, and other do not, is mostly related to variances in production (some engine/transmission combinations have better alignment from the factory) and the modifcations performed to the vehicle (certain modifications increase viabrations more than others). With the EVO in stock form, the combination of a very rough firing engine and a relative loose input shaft (which is not even supported by a pilot bearing) does not help matters.
Tilton didn't originally use the harder-spec hubs for the EVO because it is more desirable to have the hubs "softer" than the input shaft. Tilton does not spec the harder hubs until a issue is seen. The Honda spline is a very shallow design, offering very little contact area, as is why the harder hubs are used. The spline used in the EVO is the same used by Porsche and many racing transmission manufactures (XTRAC, Hewland) and is a very strong design. Tilton supplies 5.5" 3-plate clutches (with "soft" hubs) to Porshce for all 996 GT3 RSR cars built and do not have the spline wear issue. A lot of the difference is that Porsche holds a lot tighter tolerances than Mitsubishi and is part of the reason their cars cost so much. The "softer" hubs are standard for all the racing applications Tilton offers clutches for (NASCAR, Champ Car, ALMS, Grand Am, Le Mans, etc). Racing applications place a lot demand on clutches, where 15,000+ shifts is common in a 24 Hour race. The main difference is that racing customers build cars to a lot tighter tolerances and engines are more highly refined/tuned than seen in productionc cars.
Average customers are not aware of the concepts of driveline alignment and torsional vibrations, and understandably get upset when something fails. On the other hand, it is the nature of modifying cars. When a car is changed from stock form, there is a large chance the problems will arise and is why new car warranties become void when modifications are performed. Most modifications require other things to be done to make the modification work reliably. For the most part, Tilton clutches are race clutches adapted to modified street cars. The underlying problems is not the quality of Tilton products, it is the application they are being used. In summary, the EVO may require corrections for alignment and viabration/harmonics depending on the modifactions performed and how far out the engine/tranmission alignment is. Lastly, make sure BOTH dowels are in the engine block when reinstalling the transmission. If only one (or none) are used, alignment will really be bad.
I hope this all didn't bore you all, but thought it would be useful information.
1. Misalignment between the engine and transmission/bellhousing. In production cars, alignment is not held to a very tight tolerance because it would be too cost prohibitive (scrapping or reworking a lot parts). Basically, the centerline of the input shaft is not aligned with the centerline of the crankshaft. When there is misalingment, there is uneven load placed on the splines and they wear. Typically, it is not a concern with a single disc OE clutch. The hub in a single disc clutch is a lot longer, allowing the load from misalignment to be spread over a larger area. The sprung hub also compensates some for the misalignment. On a side note, Tilton carbon/carbon clutch uses a single floating hub (drive both discs) that has a long spline area (like the OE clutch).
Due to the design constraints of most twin-plate clutches, the hubs must be shorter. The shorter hubs do not have as much area to spread the load and wear more quickly. Misalignment is exagrated even future the smaller the clutch is. This is why race engine builders relocate the dowels (and make sure the engine block is truely flat) in the back of the engine block to correct for misalignment.
2. Torsional vibrations/harmonics also cause spline wear. When a engine fires, it transmits vibrations. This is why engines have a harmonic dampner and is not a good idea to use a "power pulley". In stock form, the 4G63 already creates a lot of torsional vibrations (compared to other engines).
When modifications are made (cams, higher boost, power pulleys, etc), the torsional viabrations/harmonics change. The change can cause other engine and driveline components to wear more rapidly. The stock harmonic dampner is adequate for a stock engine, but as modifications are performed the stock harmonic dampner may not be adequate. This is why companies like ATI and Fluidampr exist. They produce high quality harmonic dampners for use on modified engines to absord the increased/changed harmonics.
The reason why some have the spline wear problem, and other do not, is mostly related to variances in production (some engine/transmission combinations have better alignment from the factory) and the modifcations performed to the vehicle (certain modifications increase viabrations more than others). With the EVO in stock form, the combination of a very rough firing engine and a relative loose input shaft (which is not even supported by a pilot bearing) does not help matters.
Tilton didn't originally use the harder-spec hubs for the EVO because it is more desirable to have the hubs "softer" than the input shaft. Tilton does not spec the harder hubs until a issue is seen. The Honda spline is a very shallow design, offering very little contact area, as is why the harder hubs are used. The spline used in the EVO is the same used by Porsche and many racing transmission manufactures (XTRAC, Hewland) and is a very strong design. Tilton supplies 5.5" 3-plate clutches (with "soft" hubs) to Porshce for all 996 GT3 RSR cars built and do not have the spline wear issue. A lot of the difference is that Porsche holds a lot tighter tolerances than Mitsubishi and is part of the reason their cars cost so much. The "softer" hubs are standard for all the racing applications Tilton offers clutches for (NASCAR, Champ Car, ALMS, Grand Am, Le Mans, etc). Racing applications place a lot demand on clutches, where 15,000+ shifts is common in a 24 Hour race. The main difference is that racing customers build cars to a lot tighter tolerances and engines are more highly refined/tuned than seen in productionc cars.
Average customers are not aware of the concepts of driveline alignment and torsional vibrations, and understandably get upset when something fails. On the other hand, it is the nature of modifying cars. When a car is changed from stock form, there is a large chance the problems will arise and is why new car warranties become void when modifications are performed. Most modifications require other things to be done to make the modification work reliably. For the most part, Tilton clutches are race clutches adapted to modified street cars. The underlying problems is not the quality of Tilton products, it is the application they are being used. In summary, the EVO may require corrections for alignment and viabration/harmonics depending on the modifactions performed and how far out the engine/tranmission alignment is. Lastly, make sure BOTH dowels are in the engine block when reinstalling the transmission. If only one (or none) are used, alignment will really be bad.
I hope this all didn't bore you all, but thought it would be useful information.
Originally Posted by EFIxMR
That sucks they are having this problem on the EVO's too. We run them on our drag hondas, and some of my friends report the same thing. The newer disc has a heat treated center section, strange that tilton didn't automatically supply the EVO with the same thing.
Also strange is that I run one of the first tilton twin discs on my Honda with the silver hub (non heat treated) and so far no problems.
Also strange is that I run one of the first tilton twin discs on my Honda with the silver hub (non heat treated) and so far no problems.
Jul 22, 2006, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by joeymia
good point about the transmission alignment. When you installed your tranny were both dowels on the block?
Yes, triple checked and made sure of that.
