Mod Advice: MAP 38mm MVS O2 Eliminator Downpipe w/FP Red
Jul 6, 2009, 12:17 PM
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Mod Advice: MAP 38mm MVS O2 Eliminator Downpipe w/FP Red
2006 EVO IX MR (Daily Driver)... GOALS: looking for reliable and spirited street and highway driving.
I am planning to upgrade my FP Green to FP Red in the near future. Current mods include: HKS MIVEC cams, 1000cc RC injectors, HKS Hi Power muffler, downpipe, fuel rail, Full Race manifold, HKS DLI II, intake w/cone filter, FMIC, upper & lower FMIC pipes, ECU boost control, GM boost solenoid, E-85, Walbro 225 fuel pump, Titek O2 housing, ACT HDSS clutch with fly wheel, AEM meth injection w/ 91 only, ECU tuned with map switching.
I am considering the following mods:
- MAP Stainless Steel O2 Eliminator Downpipe for Evolution 9 (w TiAL)
- TiAL Q Blow-off Valve (replace stock Evo IX MR BOV)
- FP RED Turbocharger Evo IX (Upgrade) with 80mm surge port, ported
- Buschur Racing Double Pumper Fuel System w/Dual Fuel Feed Line Kit
- Evolution 1200cc Fuel Injectors
- Aeromotive A1000 Fuel Pressure Regulator w/ MAP FPR INSTALL KIT
MAP website says "Remove the internal wastegate flapper from your turbocharger, enlarge the wastegate discharge and bolt up one of these bad boys for the best boost control and elimination of boost creep available!"
Has anyone done this with the FP Red? Thoughts?
Also, the MAP website states, "We use the .9 bar spring pressure for most applications, if you would like a different spring pressure please specify in the notes section of the checkout page!"
Would the .9 bar spring be recommended for the FP Red running E-85 with about 30 PSI of boost?
Is a fuel pressure regulator recommend with this planned setup?
I love my HKS MIVEC cams.... idle is stock. However, would you expect much gains from GSC S2? How about idle and "drivability"?
Thanks for any inputs...
I am planning to upgrade my FP Green to FP Red in the near future. Current mods include: HKS MIVEC cams, 1000cc RC injectors, HKS Hi Power muffler, downpipe, fuel rail, Full Race manifold, HKS DLI II, intake w/cone filter, FMIC, upper & lower FMIC pipes, ECU boost control, GM boost solenoid, E-85, Walbro 225 fuel pump, Titek O2 housing, ACT HDSS clutch with fly wheel, AEM meth injection w/ 91 only, ECU tuned with map switching.
I am considering the following mods:
- MAP Stainless Steel O2 Eliminator Downpipe for Evolution 9 (w TiAL)
- TiAL Q Blow-off Valve (replace stock Evo IX MR BOV)
- FP RED Turbocharger Evo IX (Upgrade) with 80mm surge port, ported
- Buschur Racing Double Pumper Fuel System w/Dual Fuel Feed Line Kit
- Evolution 1200cc Fuel Injectors
- Aeromotive A1000 Fuel Pressure Regulator w/ MAP FPR INSTALL KIT
MAP website says "Remove the internal wastegate flapper from your turbocharger, enlarge the wastegate discharge and bolt up one of these bad boys for the best boost control and elimination of boost creep available!"
Has anyone done this with the FP Red? Thoughts?
Also, the MAP website states, "We use the .9 bar spring pressure for most applications, if you would like a different spring pressure please specify in the notes section of the checkout page!"
Would the .9 bar spring be recommended for the FP Red running E-85 with about 30 PSI of boost?
Is a fuel pressure regulator recommend with this planned setup?
I love my HKS MIVEC cams.... idle is stock. However, would you expect much gains from GSC S2? How about idle and "drivability"?
Thanks for any inputs...
Jul 7, 2009, 09:19 AM
#6
.9 bar will put you at around 14psi minimum boost pressure, the maximum depends on what boost controller you use. With a manual boost controller you can easily hit the 30psi mark, but some electronic boost controllers are only able to double wastegate pressure which would be about 28psi in this case. Thanks for considering our products and don't hesitate to ask if you have any further questions!
Jul 13, 2009, 03:12 AM
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People seem to be confused what a Wastegate is actually for. The function of the wastegate is to allow exhaust gasses to bypass the turbine wheel. This effectively creates less boost, as you are "wasting" this energy and not using it to drive the turbine wheel (and hence drive your compressor wheel).
The general rule of thumb is the lower the boost you want to run the bigger the wastegate you are going to need. There is no reason you should need an external gate on a turbo such as the FP red, the internal gate is capable of relegating it to very reasonable pump gas boost pressures already. The only reason you'd want an external gate is if you were actually going to try to run 14psi, but who would want to do that?
The general rule of thumb is the lower the boost you want to run the bigger the wastegate you are going to need. There is no reason you should need an external gate on a turbo such as the FP red, the internal gate is capable of relegating it to very reasonable pump gas boost pressures already. The only reason you'd want an external gate is if you were actually going to try to run 14psi, but who would want to do that?
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Mar 7, 2010, 08:03 AM
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churchja and I have the same questions on this item, it looks to be a fantastic product but... does it offer what you need... in addition to that is the fact that after 10hours of searching... HOW THE HECK DO YOU REMOVE THE FLAPPER AND ENLARGE THE WASTEGATE DISCHARGE?!...
seriously... not enough info for the layman for a bolt on that promises the function of additional horsepower... try doing an install/review for something like this first because there is going to be TONS of debate from tuners if this product is a good bolt on or not, especially when there is a pre-requisite mod needed.
seriously... not enough info for the layman for a bolt on that promises the function of additional horsepower... try doing an install/review for something like this first because there is going to be TONS of debate from tuners if this product is a good bolt on or not, especially when there is a pre-requisite mod needed.
Mar 8, 2010, 08:35 AM
#9
churchja and I have the same questions on this item, it looks to be a fantastic product but... does it offer what you need... in addition to that is the fact that after 10hours of searching... HOW THE HECK DO YOU REMOVE THE FLAPPER AND ENLARGE THE WASTEGATE DISCHARGE?!...
seriously... not enough info for the layman for a bolt on that promises the function of additional horsepower... try doing an install/review for something like this first because there is going to be TONS of debate from tuners if this product is a good bolt on or not, especially when there is a pre-requisite mod needed.
seriously... not enough info for the layman for a bolt on that promises the function of additional horsepower... try doing an install/review for something like this first because there is going to be TONS of debate from tuners if this product is a good bolt on or not, especially when there is a pre-requisite mod needed.
Apr 2, 2010, 05:57 PM
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People seem to be confused what a Wastegate is actually for. The function of the wastegate is to allow exhaust gasses to bypass the turbine wheel. This effectively creates less boost, as you are "wasting" this energy and not using it to drive the turbine wheel (and hence drive your compressor wheel).
The general rule of thumb is the lower the boost you want to run the bigger the wastegate you are going to need. There is no reason you should need an external gate on a turbo such as the FP red, the internal gate is capable of relegating it to very reasonable pump gas boost pressures already. The only reason you'd want an external gate is if you were actually going to try to run 14psi, but who would want to do that?
The general rule of thumb is the lower the boost you want to run the bigger the wastegate you are going to need. There is no reason you should need an external gate on a turbo such as the FP red, the internal gate is capable of relegating it to very reasonable pump gas boost pressures already. The only reason you'd want an external gate is if you were actually going to try to run 14psi, but who would want to do that?
Jun 23, 2010, 03:32 PM
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Anyone using one of these now? Planning to go with one during my next upgrade installment (FP Red to Black, HKS MIVEC to GSC cams, on built MAP 2.3L stroker) while deployed over the next year with the military in the Middle East.
Looking for any feedback...
Thanks,
J. Church
Looking for any feedback...
Thanks,
J. Church
Jul 17, 2010, 05:27 PM
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Because if you look at the twinscroll housing you have two discharge ports that remain separate during the spoolup due to the stock flapper closing them both off. If you open the flapper/remove it you allow the two discharge ports, during spoolup, to mix pre-external gate and not remain separate, removing the true twinscroll effect. Mike at AWD and a few other people have tested removing the flapper and they lost 400-500rpm due to the fact that it is technically making it spool like a single scroll rather a twinscroll.
I have not had a chance to test this myself, so I am refering to other peoples testing. We will be doing this soon however.
The op graph doesn't provide a good comparison for spool since the before and after dyno were not started at the same rpm...
Mikey
I have not had a chance to test this myself, so I am refering to other peoples testing. We will be doing this soon however.
The op graph doesn't provide a good comparison for spool since the before and after dyno were not started at the same rpm...
Mikey
Mikey,
With the MAP recirculating O2 don't the discharge ports remain separated until after the TiAL MVS WG? There is no pre-mix of exhaust gases because the TiAL WG is closed, right? I don't understand how you lose the twinscroll effect with this setup. Not doubting you'll lose spool with this setup, just trying to understand how.
"Because if you look at the twinscroll housing you have two discharge ports that remain separate during the spoolup due to the stock flapper (TiAL MVS WG) closing them both off." Couldn't you make the same statement about the MAP recirc O2? Aren't the stock flapper and TiAL MVS WG performing the same function?
Any further explanation is much appreciated. I was really hoping to go this route with my next round of mods. But if I'm going to lose 400-500 rpm during spool up, I should really just keep my TiTek O2 housing. Already tried the MAP O2 Open dump, and just to loud for my tastes.
"Recirculated wastegate dump (Pictured): Standard O2 housing configurations recirculate the wastegate gases just inches away from the turbine outlet resulting in turbulence and decreased performance. Our unit recirculates the wastegate gases as far away from the turbine outlet as possible to provide you with the best possible performance without the additional noise from the external dump."
With the MAP recirculating O2 don't the discharge ports remain separated until after the TiAL MVS WG? There is no pre-mix of exhaust gases because the TiAL WG is closed, right? I don't understand how you lose the twinscroll effect with this setup. Not doubting you'll lose spool with this setup, just trying to understand how.
"Because if you look at the twinscroll housing you have two discharge ports that remain separate during the spoolup due to the stock flapper (TiAL MVS WG) closing them both off." Couldn't you make the same statement about the MAP recirc O2? Aren't the stock flapper and TiAL MVS WG performing the same function?
Any further explanation is much appreciated. I was really hoping to go this route with my next round of mods. But if I'm going to lose 400-500 rpm during spool up, I should really just keep my TiTek O2 housing. Already tried the MAP O2 Open dump, and just to loud for my tastes.
"Recirculated wastegate dump (Pictured): Standard O2 housing configurations recirculate the wastegate gases just inches away from the turbine outlet resulting in turbulence and decreased performance. Our unit recirculates the wastegate gases as far away from the turbine outlet as possible to provide you with the best possible performance without the additional noise from the external dump."
churchja, as soon as the internal wastegate flapper is opened, the effect of the twinscroll exhaust housing are all but lost.
This is because the flapper isolates the scrolls for each other. Once it's open, the pulse energy and exhaust flow can mix between scrolls. As i've already told mikey, i've actually tested this. With my wastegate the same setup as this item, once i put the internal wastegate back i gain a significant amount of spool/reponse back. 2nd gear, 17psi was being made @ 5000rpm. With the internal actuator on (and external still there), 17psi was being made @ 4400. Off boost response and drivability went up.
I didn't have my internal flapper welded open. I just lockwired it in the open position.
as seen here
All these results were obtained with a stock evo 4-6 wastegate actuator that opens at 12psi.
This is because the flapper isolates the scrolls for each other. Once it's open, the pulse energy and exhaust flow can mix between scrolls. As i've already told mikey, i've actually tested this. With my wastegate the same setup as this item, once i put the internal wastegate back i gain a significant amount of spool/reponse back. 2nd gear, 17psi was being made @ 5000rpm. With the internal actuator on (and external still there), 17psi was being made @ 4400. Off boost response and drivability went up.
I didn't have my internal flapper welded open. I just lockwired it in the open position.
as seen here
All these results were obtained with a stock evo 4-6 wastegate actuator that opens at 12psi.
RSMike,
Thanks! I'm being to understand how this works. A little disappointed since I really thought this would have been my next step for an FP Black instead of the TiTek O2 housing. MAPerformance built my 2.3L, Rev2 intake, and port/polish head. I love their work and products. But for this one, probably best to stay with the O2 housing, right?
"Once it's open, the pulse energy and exhaust flow can mix between scrolls." The exhaust flow and pulse energy mix inside the turbine housing, right? Not on the exhaust side of the flapper... Just trying to envision.
General description of Twin-Scroll Turbo:
"Twin scroll turbine housing. The TST housing derives its name from the geometry of the exhaust gas inlet into the turbine. Two different-sized scrolls are generally used, a primary and a secondary. Typically, the primary is open for low-speed operation, and both for high-speed use. This creates the ability of the TST to be a small A/R housing at low speeds and a large A/R at higher speeds.
TST designs are of merit in that they offer a better combination of low-speed response and high-end power. It would be difficult to configure the unit to control boost by effectively varying A/R. A wastegate is therefore still necessary to control boost pressure. Simplicity of the twin scroll turbine housing is its big selling point."
Hard to see from your pic, but is the TiAL WG positioned after the exhaust gases mix (vs the MAP version were the WG is positioned before the exhaust gases mix further down the exhaust pipe)? Guessing not, and there's another pipe underneath that can't be seen in the pic, right?
Thanks,
J. Church
Last edited by churchja; Jul 17, 2010 at 05:35 PM.
Jul 17, 2010, 06:06 PM
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Understanding the Mitsubishi Twin Scroll
Mike... Thanks! This helped my understanding immensely.
Originally Posted by RSMike
Heya,
here is what i mean - (pics yay!)
standard housing (with light shining into the entry for better viewing
Standard housing with flapper closed
flapper open while spooling or at max boost
When the exhaust valve opens and the exhaust gas flows from the combustion chamber, it is a high pressure wave. It wants to go towards the area of lowest pressure (like blowing up a balloon and letting it go), so it goes out the turbine.
With the wastegate flapper open, it gives the pulse/flow another path to flow to. I found that with my kelford 272's, this was ever worse. This is because the duration on the cams were larger, so there was less flow velocity. So it had more time to goto the other scroll etc.
Does that help at all?
Cheers, Mike
here is what i mean - (pics yay!)
standard housing (with light shining into the entry for better viewing
Standard housing with flapper closed
flapper open while spooling or at max boost
When the exhaust valve opens and the exhaust gas flows from the combustion chamber, it is a high pressure wave. It wants to go towards the area of lowest pressure (like blowing up a balloon and letting it go), so it goes out the turbine.
With the wastegate flapper open, it gives the pulse/flow another path to flow to. I found that with my kelford 272's, this was ever worse. This is because the duration on the cams were larger, so there was less flow velocity. So it had more time to goto the other scroll etc.
Does that help at all?
Cheers, Mike
Jul 19, 2010, 06:30 PM
#15
Multiple threads comparing with dyno data, that being said a cam swap will probably net you the most gains with the red over the external gate setup.