honda-guy

iTrader: (55)

get the engine out the car now and can't decide. its a stock evo 9 long block. only mods are S2 cams and springs and retainers. car is mostly a track car.

i got the GSC balance delete kit and was ready to do it, but now i'm having second thoughts after reading the post from Jack's Transmission. should i just go with Gates Racing belts and leave the balance shaft in. i run in NASA TT and limited to 320 whp. so not really looking to get every once of power out of the setup. was only going to do it eliminate the chance of balance belt snapping.

http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pa...balance-shafts

Seancj

iTrader: (2)

Every one is going to have a different opinion on this one.

For me I saw it like this. BS rotates 2 time the speed of the crank. So if i am tracking the car and am in the high RPM's often so is m BS. 8k on crank 16k on BS. It adds an extra belt that is not needed and it take oil volume away from the rotational assembly.

I have also read Jacks wright up on BS. And he dose make a good point but for me i would rather simplify the system to eliminate a possible problem. The only real problem with dealing your BS a possible Oil Pressure increase. But there are plenty of way to fix that.

barneyb

Back in DSM days balance shaves were not mature technology and they frequently failed, so frequently that nobody wanted them still installed after an overhaul. That is no longer true, balance shaft failure on the USDM Evo is unusual.

What they never got quite right is the belt that drives the balance shaft. It should have had a tensioner just like the cam belt. I've never done a timing belt job at 60K were the balance belt wasn't loose. No one knows this but going 60K without re tensioning the balance belt along the way could be grievous. I'd suggest every 30K to avoid problems.

On a track only car I say up to you. For a dd I agree with Jack.

Seancj

iTrader: (2)

It is odd you would say BS fallers are uncommon. In my personal experience every time I have opened up a Evo block with BS in it they are earther Mard or bearing is oddly worn.

honda-guy

iTrader: (55)

I know two people where balance shaft belt failed before 60k service and damaged motor

foxbat

Removing the balance shafts is likely to cause phantom knock, one more disadvantage beside the others mentioned in the Jack's transmission post.
I'd simply use an aftermarket belt, & possibly aftermarket balance shaft bearings, ACL offers such bearing sets

Seancj

iTrader: (2)

If your BS is going out is will cause knock around 3k and 6k but a good BS timed right will not cause phantom knock. But how will not having it in there cause phantom knock.

In anything removing it help you eliminate some nose with in the motor.

2FST45O

iTrader: (1)

i also have been going back and forth weather to do the delete or not for months. its like you see a lot of people say hell yea do it there are no issues and then you see a lot of horror stories also. same with the oil cooler delete

Seancj

iTrader: (2)

The horror story's around BS delete I think is mainly due in improper install of the delete. Not useing the right tool to pull out the bearing and install the new one 180 deg out. Not useing the right tool can leave mettle shavings in the eng. Or when people use the oil bearing and not a new one so it dose not seal right. And or not useing an OE stub shaft.

Same with the cooler delete. If you delete the cooler then you need to pull and plug or gut the thermostate. By why you would not want to run with cooler is crazy talk with not hot the 4g63 can get.

rstchris

iTrader: (10)

I have deleted BS on every 4g63 I have ever opened up. If the delete creates a new issue, remedy it accordingly.
I choose to eliminate the risk of BS failures for peace of mind. I've personally had both kinds of failures, bearing destroyed and steel shavings cutting through my rod bearings and turbo bearings. Also the BS belt coming off and taking the timing belt for an early vacation while killing valves in the process.
If you face fantom knock, filter it.
If you face high speed clutch drag, upgrade the clutch and trans fluid.
If you get cold oil pressure spikes, port the relief.
Keeping the BS in IMO is not worth the risk.

barneyb

These cars get used hard. It isn't unusual for people to be on their second or third engine. But we continue to think (probably correctly) that the engine is one of the strongest around. I'm thinking when you were opening Evo blocks you probably weren't doing it because of a BS problem. If that is true then the BS went as far as the rest of the engine.

e_kobz

iTrader: (36)

I've been running NASA all season at 450whp on the stock motor and I haven't had any issues with my balance shaft or balance belts.

Seancj

iTrader: (2)

Well almost right. Most of the time yes it is being open upped because of performing some type of upgrade.

But I have opened one up because of the BS going out ( odd knock even at 3k not influenced by timing or fuel ) that time it was directly cause by a BS.

Also even so over the last 2-3 years between me and my group of friends we have taken out, opened up at lease 8 Evo 4g63. All of them every one there was alwes somthinng wrong with the BS. Most times the crank and rods still good. Confermed by gaugeing the crank and bearings. But alwes somthing not right with the BS


Also the removing the BS gets rid of a belt that is not only not needed but a ticking time bomb. Completely agree with that. That is a fact and no one that has been in the DSM Evo community for any length of time can contest that one.

IMO the BS system was poorly designed from the factory. Should of had a belt tensioner and a guid or idler. It is just a lose belt flapping around with no way to take up he slack created by time.

94AWDcoupe

iTrader: (125)

I build all my personal engines with balance shafts. I build all customer cars without them. I have not had a balance shaft related failure yet on my engines. I dont really care to have a discussion. from all the threads I have seen on the subject people who push taking them out dont truly know what they are there for in the first place. In short taking them out is certainly one less system to fail. but it does cause a whole assortment of other problems I care not deal with.

as far as reliability they are just as stout as any other component when everything is in proper functioning condition. problem is at first signs of detonation the balance shaft bearings are the first thing to go when the oil gets minor contamination.

honda-guy

iTrader: (55)

the issues is not how much HP you make, it's how high you rev your engine. i've tracked the stock evo engine with BS for 4 years without issues. but i used gates racing belts and change them regularly. but i was constantly fearing the the belt would snap.
even when i had the 2.3 built, i kept the BS. then removed the BS for the 2.2. now i'm back to stock long block and deciding to removed it or not since engine is already out.