jameswwt

Hi,
just wonder would it be drivable for street performance and occasionally hill run if using Teflon bushes rather than Oem & Super Pro?

Will it reduce handling performance?

Thanks

MinusPrevious

iTrader: (3)

Be great if you could provide a link or the product name & part no. that you are referring to

jameswwt

Hi, actually its done by the machine shop. They will custom made the bush

heel2toe

iTrader: (41)

By Teflon bushings Im guessing you mean Teflon lined spherical bearings, correct?

Im not really sure what you are asking but I'll try and answer it to the best of my ability.

Most of the OEM bushings are rubber based although some have sphericals in them. This rubber acts as a cushion main benefits being reduced NVH. However given the additional flex, from a performance perspective it isn't as ideal as a harder substance like a poly or just straight metal on metal like in a spherical bearing. As you corner and your suspension compresses the rubber bushings have way more give which results in changes in your alignment.

So by replacing them with sphericals your suspension will be much tighter and more direct. The downside being as I previously mentioned a potential for added noise vibrations as well as potential reduced service life. If you are going to be driving your car on the street see if the machine shop can incorporate some form of a dust boot to help keep sand salt and other crap from getting in there

WRC-LVR

iTrader: (1)

If you mean the machine shop is going to machine teflon to the bushing size, then no you dont want to do that. Teflon has a much lower Rockwell hardness and will flow under compression. That means the bushings will wear quickly. Even using metal sleeves the teflon will wear as the metal sleeve compresses the teflon materials around it.

If you meant that the machine shop will make them out of Nylon 66 or other similar material, then yes, maybe.

Never replace the OEM spherical bushings with non sphericals like /\/\ the previous post.

What you can do is have the machine shop replace the OEM non spherical bushings with Nylon ones. That will be an upgrade as Nylon is harder than the poly type bushings. Nylon will increase the noise and vibration transmitted so be aware of that.
You must still use metal sleeves on the nylon bushings just like the oem rubber ones.

Good luck with the project and post pics if you get them made.

todd6027

iTrader: (10)

any ones that have oem spherical bearing in them like rear bottom arms inner and outer leave them there or if worn replace with oem you wont get better .

heel2toe

iTrader: (41)

So I want to replace a couple more bushings in the rear. So far I have the rear diff mount and mustache bar bushings rear trailing arm and rear bump steer. Im looking at picking up the following 3 whiteline bushings:

http://www.maperformance.com/whiteli...ngs-w0589.html
http://www.maperformance.com/whiteli...ion-w0590.html
http://www.maperformance.com/whiteli...ion-w0591.html

I know w0590 isnt a spherical from the factory but can anyone confirm that w0589 and w0591 would be an upgrade over stock? I know the rear LCA's are shpericals on the outsides but cant remember what the shock mount as well as the upper control arm is...

WRC-LVR

iTrader: (1)

W0590 is not a spherical nor is the OEM but the OEM rubber is bonded to the shaft. The reason is the factory uses this as a torsion spring type as well to limit travel on the upper arm. If you replace it with the WL one you may have to upgrade your springs a little as it is not designed to be a torsion spring. OEM is also a real B**** to get out. Just do the other ones and call it a day.

heel2toe

iTrader: (41)

Thanks for chiming in. Im a little confused so Im hoping you can help me. Essentially I've replaced all the bushings in the front so I would like to finish off the rear. As I mentioned I've already done the rear trailing arm bumpsteer and rear diff mounts. Can you confirm that the W0589 and w0591 is an upgrade over the factory bushings in terms of reducing slop? I dont care about added NVH

As for w590 is it still considered an upgrade over the factory unit? You mentioned possibly needing to upgrade the springs with swapping out that piece. My car is on coilovers but I swap them out in the winter time for my stock struts so that may be an issue...why would the springs need to be upgraded? Is it something to do with limiting the suspension travel or droop?

I noticed in your signature that you have the SuperPro ecentric LCA bushings. Pardon my ignorance but what do those replace and would you recommend them? I have mostly whiteline bushings currently as well as the PSRS and some ES stuff so I dont mind mixing and matching...I just don't know too much about the SuperPro line.

I'd like to completely overhaul my rear suspension so Im looking to replace some of my OEM sphericals with new ones and upgrade others where possible. I have no problem dropping some coin on this project but don't think I can justify the cost of the hard bearing kit from Robi Cusco or the like. With that being said what would be your recommendation as to which bushings I should pick up? Thanks in advance!

heel2toe

iTrader: (41)

WRC- So I just found this thread of yours which seemed to have answered some of my now silly questions... https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...-bushings.html

However, I am still unsure if it would be considered an upgrade over the factory bushing. Your comment about upgrading the springs has been cleared up now thankfully. By upgrade I guess you meant upping the rates. Im currently running 650# springs in the rear but will be sending my Ohlins in for a revalve shortly and plan to pick up a set of 800# or 850# springs so that isnt a concern.

But my question remains, what if any improvements would one see by replacing the stock piece with the Whiteline or Superpro unit?

Are the other two bushings I mentioned w0589 w0591 worthwhile? And what is this Superpro ecentric LCA bushing you speak of? In your thread that I linked you said you installed the Superpro bushing and circled it in the diagram yet the toe link is circled and that bushing in my case (and according to your signature as well) has already been replaced with the WL rear bumpsteer bushing...Just what I think I'm in the loop I find out I'm even more confused than before

WRC-LVR

iTrader: (1)

I don't think you would find much. The amount of rubber in there is small as Smike and I have found along with 03whitegsr. If you were to replace it with some kind of spherical, then the stiction would go down. And you would need more spring either way. I also tend to believe that it is there to limit travel so not sure...You might ask the guys who rally. They seem to be the ones that do the bushing the most IIRC.

The WL and Superpro ecentric bushing can go on the toe link and the lower shock arm at the inboard position. Essentially the same bushing and offset spacer. This give you more control over the static camber and toe. The eccentric spacer is the same as well so you can have some control over the angle of the arms and change the camber and toe curve. The angle will depend on the orientation of the hole in the spacer. This applies to both arms. 22 ad 14 in the pic posted in my other thread 2 years ago

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...-bushings.html

The pink area is the one bonded 2 piece with shaft. That one prolly wont get you much at all and is a ***** to remove, and will require a slight bump in spring rate.

Back to how the WL and SuperPro eccentric bushings work: NOTE the spacer must get clamped at the correct positions in order not to move during adjustment of the eccentric bolt

For example, if you are looking from the front of the car towards the back and orient the hole in the spacer in the drivers side lower shock arm inboard position to be at 12 o'clock then the angle of the arm will be slightly less and the adjustment from the bolt center mark will move the arm in and out. If the spacer hole is oriented at 6 o'clock the arm will have a slightly steeper angle and also move the arm in and out, but the camber curve will be different due to the starting angle being different. These 2 positions also give the most camber adjustment with little movement of the arm up or down at the attaching point.

If on the other hand you orient the hole in the 9 o'clock or 3 o'clock positions, it is different. In the 3 o'clock position, the arm is pulled in to the center of the car minimizing static camber and the adjustment is small in terms of mm in either direction, and the arm is in a neutral static position in terms of angle. Because you have effectively shortened the arm then the camber curve changes so that the amount of change per arm movement is greater at the wheel.

In the 9 o'clock position, the lower shock arm is pushed out so the static camber is maximized. This also effectively makes the arm longer and changes the camber curve to be slower or less if you think about it in terms of movement at the wheel.

One of the reason to use this bushing on the lower shock control arm at the inboard position is to have better control over static camber and the associated camber curve.
Combined with the offset bushing for the toe link you can help dial in the toe and camber for your car's uses ie straight up with no change for drag or whatever for road track ( fast longer curves or slower and more technical and more direction changes). Im not completely sure but for road racing you might want a certain static camber and more camber change ( negative ) under load with as little change in toe as possible. You have to work that out with the suspension strut and springs removed and check toe and camber using a jack at all positions. Sorry both sides unloaded but with the RSB attached and working :-)

Mr car was originally setup by Robert at Robispec this way and I have kept it the same since 2006 with only changing any worn bushings and arms. I did add the large P/U rear trailing arm donut bushings to the new arms I got when the passenger side one had the ball joint go bad. However, the original trailing arms also had those done by Robert....

Remember these bushings affect the moving camber and toe so directional stability and stability under braking is where the effect is.

My car has both so when i get time maybe I'll get it up on ramps and take pics.

heel2toe

iTrader: (41)

Thank you very much for the thorough response! Everything you said is starting to resonate with me and while you clearly have more suspension knowledge than myself you did a great job breaking it down for the less educated folks such as myself

It sounds like the bushings in the upper rear control arm arent much of an improvement given the lack of rubber and with no plans to go spherical there I'm probably better off just leaving well enough along. I'll pop off the arms and check the condition of the bushings but if they arent worn then I'll just swave my money.

So with those out of the way lets talk about the other bushings. My first round of bushing overhaul in the rear consisted of the trailing arm large donut bushing and the rear bump steer in the toe link. Oh and rear diff bushings but lets forget about those for now. Since I did the bushing at the same time I cant comment on what different each specific piece made however I will say that the car felt a lot more stable during hard braking. Previously if I went into a corner hard on the braked the back end would wag it tail so to speak. It was even more apparent when I would be in a situation where I was unable to completely brake in a straight line. Now this would be typically in a situation where I was over driving the car but there are times where getting all your braking down before the corner just isnt the fastest way around the corner. But anyway I noticed a huge improvement in braking stability with the addition of those two bushings.

As for the LCA I have yet to swap anything. It sounds like the Superpro bushing is a nice piece assuming I know how to set it up properly. Everything you said about altering the camber curves makes perfect sense; Im just not sure what is the ideal orientation for the driving I do (no track time yet, just auto-x) Is the Superpro piece also a spherical like the OEM piece?

Do you have any feedback on bushing that attached the rear shock to the rear LCA?

Thanks for all of your help. Hopefully some of this info will be beneficial to others when they are looking to replace their bushings

03whitegsr

iTrader: (8)

Longer lower arm = more dynamic camber change

Shorter lower arm = less dynamic camber change

We have unequal length arms, shortening the lower makes the arms closer to equal length. In the extreme case where they were equal, there would be zero camber change with wheel travel.

heel2toe

iTrader: (41)

In a perfect world what is the ideal configuration? Is that even possible to answer or is it track and vehicle dependant? I'd think more dynamic camber would be preferred assuming it doesnt put you over the edge of diminishing returns. It must be a balance between enough static camber relative to dynamic camber, correct?

WRC-LVR

iTrader: (1)

nope Superpro is a PU with offset metal sleeve as i indicated. IIRC it is two pieces and the metal sleeve.

03 Whitegsr is right about the lengths and the effects....However, it is desirable to gain negative camber under bump. You wouldn't need that if the car did not lean in the corner, however that scenario implies no suspension travel, with the resultant loss of traction from zero travel encountering a bump. the negative camber gain compensates for the lean and helps keep the outside contact patch full while a somewhat compliant suspension allows the car to remain stable above the suspension and follow the track irregularities better.

2 scenarios, big springs small sway bars smaller springs bigger sway bars . It becomes track specific and car specific.. Depending on the suspension design.

According to Carroll Smith...you need enough spring to stay off the bumpstops at maximum g including a bump in the middle of a corner. That way you avoid going massive understeer on that end of the car ( front or rear which ever hits the bumpstop ) IIrc the sway bars are then used to balance the characteristic of the car bearing in mind you are then tying the wheels on an axle together and dont want to lift the inside.

You might check out the Carroll Smith books on suspension cause/effect and applied fixes.