Arlo

On a brighter note.
Just watched The Martian.
I'm going to have to science the s#%t out of this one.

Arlo

I'd hate to see this thread go stagnant.
As of today I'm waiting on my cylinder head from the machine shop. 8 intake and 2 exhaust valves on order. Hopefully by the end of the week it will be Christmas for me.

Has anyone had the opportunity to delve into my logs? Seriously interested in what you guys see.

I have been reading as much as I can, as suggested, about evo ecu tuning. It's starting to make sense. I'd like to ask a few intelligent questions going on what I have read and from tuners that I've spoken to.

1: How does the ecu detect "what altitude you are at"?
In my industry I frequently work with pressure sensors. Differential sensors with 3 ports. Pressure into one port, pressure out of another, and a vented to atmosphere port.
Barometric sensors with a sealed can and pressure/vacuum port which are factory calibrated and include a calibration curve sheet.

2: My Cobb 3 Port solenoid vents into the silicone intake snorkel. The barb fitting bore is a bit small. Blowing into it does show some restriction. Think of it as a pill with a large hole. I have a Perrin and Cobb intake, both barbs are pretty much identical.
Does it matter if the bore is small? Does it affect wastegate operation? A tuner from Buffalo mentioned that the solenoid (as opposed to spring and ball MBC) "flutters" the wastegate butterfly. Wondering if this is true. The wg actuator has adequate volume to buffer wg operation..makes me wonder.

3: Open source vs Cobb. In either case what immediate factors in the mapping relate to boost tuning? If a tuner follows the basics correctly and then tunes for boost. And I get home and have problems (surging, too much boost, codes popping up, decal backfire or backfire during gentle upshifts) and my tuner drags his heels for a fix.
If I lower boost by setting active wastegate solenoid parameters, what other parameters in mapping would be affected?
Maybe I am being a worry wart. Or just aware and prepared. Maybe the tuner will get it spot on. Up here people aren't like in Florida. I've about had it with people calling my X a Subaru. If it's not Ford, Chevy, or Mopar...they're quite clueless.

HatrixMouse

iTrader: (1)

Kind of read most of this; you type.. a lot. Anyway, you certainly have some valid points.


1. I'm pretty sure there's a barometric meter in the car, which detects the air pressure around you, allowing the ECU to make changes.
2.
3. If at all possible, go Open Source. In my personal experience, I had less/no issues with an Open Source tune as compared originally to a Cobb Pro Tune. I was having over boost issues, which were head-scratching with Cobb, but the map was switched over to Open Source, and the problem went away.


Since it seems you're speaking with a tuner from York, PA.. if you want to see someone in person, I'd highly recommend Chad from CBRD. Taking it to him, explaining your situation (once you're back on the road) of elevation, will give him the tools to tune your car. Perfectly.


If you're wanting to do the e-tune route, it seems that Chet Rickerman would ease your mind, seeing as his personal car is located in the mountains of Colorado and knows all about elevation differences.


Hope this helps and good luck!

Arlo

I do type a lot! For valid reasons (I hope).

The person...you mentioned...is the last person I would suggest anyone consider.
And is the sole reason I am now in putting together a new engine for my X.
If I lived close to the facility I would have been at the bay of his dyno every single day until the tune was fixed and withheld the cc dispute until so. Or demanded a refund.
His so called support was almost nonexistent and remote logging in the hopes of fixing bad surge resulted in a damaged engine that has put me in a $10k+ hole.

My logs (attached) were compiled using the AP.
Replies from CBRD were commented with "couldn't see surge".
Furthermore, no comments except for minor valve overlap adjustments being made were mentioned with a new (locked) map "to try".

Nevertheless.
Tephra commented. I got his attention. That is in itself was rewarding.

If there is no need for a tuner to jump in and learn his dyno software, to try different things that are built in to it, and to investigate why they were put there in the first place. They will never know how to duplicate things that I experienced and find solutions.

Lastly. I am a bit dismayed that of the "local" tuners within a days driving distance are finding it easier to tune using a mbc versus 3 port because the mitsu is such a pita to implement 3 port in a tune (so I'm told). Are others having great success?

Because I now have a Darton sleeved OEM crate block, and will be looking for real gains in the future....a street driven car....and being drivable into the 500+ hp goal.
I really would appreciate not having to twist a knob every time I went to the beach, or drove up into winding mountain roads.

I need a solution. Not eyewash of a spic and span shop and a free Pepsi upstairs in the waiting room with formula 1 background noise.

Yup, I type a lot!

RazorLab

iTrader: (8)

1. Tuners who prefer MBC over ECU boost are lazy
2. Tuners who say tuning ECU boost is a PITA just don't know what they are doing
3. If you have a good understanding of ECU boost control, it's easy
4. There is so many write ups around ECU boost control that myself and others have contributed to on this forum, that not understanding ECU boost control is just being lazy (see #1)

LetsGetThisDone

iTrader: (1)

Would love to hear from Chad on this. Have a hard time believing it. Also, you really can't "see" surge in a data log unless you can see iMAP going up and down rapidly. And surge doesn't damage engines unless you grenaded a turbo and sent shrapnel through the motor.


Also, as said previously, find a tuner who isn't too lazy to ECU controlled boost. I'm sure TSComp or English Racing could get you squared away with an etune.

Arlo

Haha.I can sort of find a bit of humor now. Believe me it wasn't that way last Thanksgiving and MONTHS before. The guy simply doesn't give a crap after he gets your payment for tuning. Promised up and down before and right after the tune rapid response to any problems related to the tune.

All fields in the attached logs were available except for wideband AFR (new UEGO coming with the rest of my parts).

I'm a "seasoned" hot rodder. Kids who's mommy and daddys bought or co-signed them an evo sat with roasted clutches and tranny's with 9k miles on them in Florida.

My IX MR had 90k+ on it before Pancho and Rodrigo decided to jack it and strip it down. And it ran great with a Scott (TTP) tune.

I do not "drive that way" (ie: floored, bouncing the limiter between gears, dumping the clutch). That said, It's not the end of the world. If the 4b11T has weaknesses...well I guess I found one of them. Huh!

As for the guy you mentioned. All that really got his attention after weeks and weeks of no response, no invite to return to his shop, no reply to phone calls and emails...once I filed a dispute for deceptive services with my bank....wa-la...a call from a polite but obviously suddenly attentive "master tuner".

Damage was done during logging for a fix. I logged through surge, maintained the rpm range where surge was for a short bit. Crap! I did my part.

If your roof leaks. You call a roofer. If it still leaks, he better fix it. Right?
If your furnace or a/c quits. You call an HVAC tech.
As for me. If your computer or home theater system takes a <expletive>, call me. And you won't even have to call me after it's fixed if you're not satisfied. I do that.

etunes make me cautious. And after asking COBB and the makers of Mustang "what about, what if"...and them asking to have chadwick give them a ring to discuss my bad tune. He did not. And that obviously pisses me off.

Perhaps I am wrong. But isn't a good days work worth a good days pay in the USA?

LetsGetThisDone

iTrader: (1)

Those logs don't look like anything that would blow up a motor, timing is good, boost is safe (looks lke its probably a stock turbo?), and knock is only occasional, but it is well controlled by the ECU. If you were getting some BOV flutter going up hill, that's pretty normal, my car does it, especially when in 5th and I'm trying to accelerate to pass. The increased load of the hill spools the turbo quicker than it would on flat ground, but at partial throttle, the engine doesn't need the air, thus the BOV flutters. It happens, especially if you have an aftermarket BOV like a tial. The funny thing about that is that if you use ECU controlled boost in the X, it has an active boost control system. Waste gate duty cycle is a 3D table based on TPS and rpm. So the wastegate is more open (turbo will make less boost) at smaller throttle openings, prevent BOV flutter. You won't have that with an MBC.


Your situation is very curious. Post your mods, what fuel you're running, and the failure mode of the blown up motor please.

splattj

iTrader: (2)

letsgetthisdone assed it well. I don't see any major evidence of surging in the log files you posted either.

But, essentially, what you had happen, was that you had too much boost at too low an RPM. This can happen when your engine load is high (like going up a hill) and you're in too high a gear/too low an RPM (say, under 3500 RPM). The engine cannot ingest all of the air the turbo is pushing at it, which when combined with high gearing/low increase in engine speed, causes the air to back up and stall the compressor wheel.

Basically, what you need to do to compensate for this is to limit the boost at lower RPM.

In looking at your logs, you have some excellent spool and you may *just* be hitting peak boost at *just* too low an RPM and getting compressor surge. I'd bet that if you backed your tune off 2-3psi under 4,000 RPM your surge issue would go away.

When you leave the line and progress through the gears you'll never be at a situation where the car can build boost at a low RPM without the revs rapidly climbing.

But, if you get on it in 5th gear at 2500 RPM on an incline, you're going to have high load and the turbo can build boost. But because of the conditions, the RPM is not going to rapidly climb and you can get compressor surge.

Aside from your surging issue, you really should avoid lagging a turbo engine in general, which I think you already understand.

PS, an MBC could never compensate for this so you definitely want a 3-port tune if you want the car to compensate for a high load/low RPM scenario.

Arlo

Thanks guys. Every bit of input helps.

Completely stock 2012 X GSR with the exceptions:
Cobb stage 3 package. 3" TBE -w- high flow cat. Silicone intake, cone filter. COBB 3 port EBC.
Perrrin intercooler, upper/lower hard piping.
Fuel pump relay relay verified to be like new.
Sunoco 93 octane only.
Adult driven.

Failure was abrupt while running through the gears. Rod #4 broke, wedged in the block. Clutch actually skidded between the fw/pp.
No particulates in the oil pump. With the exception of the relief valve showing signs of operation, the pump rotors were as new. It will not be reused.
All bearings appeared like new. Car has low 20k miles on it.
Valves in cyl 4 very slightly damaged. I've seen way worse. Very slight exhaust valve impact seen on piston 4.
Except for valve peening on top of piston 4, the piston could be moved up and down in the bore. Rings were undamaged.

Instructions were to log from 2500 rpm's to redline in 4th and 5th. 5500 in 5th was as much as I had road (and guts) for.

Also held logging in the problem rpm range of 3200-4200 rpm range constant to introduce surge. Instead of accelerating through the range, I held rpm's there to get a long log.

In my area where the engine would pull hard at 2500 rpm's (hills) I would either be smart and hold the throttle back and maintain light load. Or downshift. Intelligently. I know that.

Developing speed under light/medium load or accelerating lightly, surge occurred every time around 3200 rpm's and continued until 42-4500 rpm's.

OK, so...

For what I had to previously do with my IX with a MBC...Up in altitude, crank the regulator back a turn or so. Go back to sea level, crank it up a turn. That completely eliminated any surge/bov flutter in the hills. Never a problem at sea level...ever.

And if a 3 port is the hot ticket. With the ecu having the ability to reduce boost according to greater than normal engine load. Yet pouring it on where loads are low (ie:flat road). I wonder if many tuners do not realize how to tweak the solenoid operation. Or if areas where flat roads are the norm, and they have never delved into or realized what happens when you get off of those roads.

I would believe a street tuner would be better than a dyno tuner who never goes into the software to introduce loads greater than flat road. I was 100% clear in my preliminary knowns before the tuner did his magic. Very clear that in a MBC situation I had to physically reduce boost when I drove up in the hills.

BTW. I forgot to mention I had plumbed in a Defi EGT gauge. Pyrometer tapped in the top of the manifold between #3 & #4. Temps driving normal being appx 1200 deg. F., 2000-2200 running hard.

Stay tuned. Engine assembly starts tomorrow.

LetsGetThisDone

iTrader: (1)

I know you're mad your motor blew up, and it's easy to blame the tuner. But I'm going to say you had a random failure that wasn't CBRD's fault. True compressor surging isn't likely to cause a rod to fail, and BOV flutter is even less likely to cause a rod to fail. The bearings being in perfect shape means the engine did not experience excessive knock, or pre-detonation which could have weakened the rod. Also, on 93 octane and the stock turbo, you would not have exceeded the generally accepted torque limit of the stock rods.


The ECU doesn't control boost base on load. Its based off of throttle position and rpm. Example: at 5,000rpm and 25% throttle, wasegete duty cycle might be 20%, but a 5,000rpm at WOT, wastegate duty cycle might be 70-80% on the stock turbo. The ECU does not account for going up a hill. All it does is open the wastegate at lower boost level when you're at a lower throttle position. Which helps prevent surging and BOV flutter. Idk if the boost control strategy in the COBB map is like this, but I know tephra ROM's are.

Arlo

I'm mad. Yeah. Worse yet I have spent craploads of cash with COBB over the course of 2 cars. And I did do the math of Tacrix vs AP. Not needing all the bells and whistles of open source (but having an open source tune on my IX) I opted for the cool little AP. And I was encouraged to get and use it.

They sell an AP, sell their own stickered over 3 port. Should work seamlessly, correct?
I'll unmarry it. Box it. Ebay it. Glad I have the software, not glad I cannot do anything with it. And poor people now having to attend a moderately expensive canned course just to use it correctly.

Locked maps were not in my plan. The only option was to bypass the 3 port for a MBC. Else I would have dialed back boost myself. It would have been the smart thing to do.

Whatever happened that blew the engine. My fault, karma. She's done.
The first ever.
Rear spring mount ripping, girlfriend seat bolt tearing through and flipping her in the back seat, playing cassette ejecting into the rear shelf, tire shredding mopars.
4 of them. Engine failure 0, fun 10.
IX MR. Ran like wow, short of 200mph, constantly scotch guarded passenger seat in case of "accidents". Hah. Fun.
Damage: 0, fun...tons.

LetsGetThisDone

iTrader: (1)

I'm not saying you blew the motor up, I'm just saying that it's likely that CBRD also didn't blow it up. I'm not even saying it was karma. It just sounds like a random failure from your description. A broken rod on a 93 octane pump gas tune just doesn't happen. Especially when you pull the motor apart, and there are no signs of contributing factor like detonation. Those signs would be: pitted piston crowns, damaged or broken ring lands, worn rod bearings, and spark plugs showing sign of pre-det. Boost did not need to be dialed back, the surging or BOV flutter is not what caused that connecting rod to fail.


If you had been on E85, and Chad was spiking boost to 33psi down low to make 450wtq, I would say that you have a valid case in saying CBRD blew up your motor. But that's not what happened.

Arlo

Log 13 is looking pretty gnarly there with 8, then 17, and 14 knocks.
Comments?

LetsGetThisDone

iTrader: (1)

Looks like false knock. You lifted, or hit the rev limiter, which triggered the knock sensor. The throttle plate closed a little bit for two data points at line 116, so I'm not sure what happened with that. But the knock looks like its not real. My car will get that occasionally, even on E85, when I shift, or hit the rev limiter. if that had happened at 6k rpm, and carried out to redline, or took until redline to decay away, I would say it was an issue. But that's not what it is.


Edit: Judging by the way the RPM's jumped around at the end of the pull where the knock happened, it looks like you definitely hit the rev limiter. So that is definitely false knock. It's just the motor making noise on the limiter.