kensuke

iTrader: (2)

Attention all performance minded drivers!

A few months back I typed up a very lengthy summary about wheel offsets and tire sizes, and even though I no longer own a lancer, I feel that it is necessary to outline a few other things for all of you. As a few of you may know, I traded my lancer for a 2003 Eclipse GTS (I miss my lancer...) which I'm planning to give to my father. Why's that you may ask? I'm going to pick up a 1989-1993 240SX hatch and build my original dream car: a Silvia. You may be wondering what the hell this has to do with anything; well, I'm getting to that.
I've learned the hard way to RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH. I've signed up on numerous 240SX forums and haven't posted once on any of them. The reason? Because I've been too busy with the search function. My main goal has been to build a solid suspension good for auto-x, drift, and daily street driving. This has lead me to look at the lower half of cars far differently than before. Since there aren't any real good threads on this forum for this specific topic (unless you consider vendors trying to hype-up products a good thread), I've decided to share some of my newly acquired knowledge.

First of all, the following really won't apply to you if you're more show minded. With all dues paid, I respect what you do to your car, I just believe in function before form. The first thing that we must look toward is what seems to be the first thing people do to their car: RIMS. Decided something now - do you want functional or do you want showy? I purchased a set of Buddy Club P1 Racing II rims for $775 shipped back last fall. I was overjoyed to see their massive 18x8 size and loved them to death when they were on my car. Unfortinuately, I didn't yet realize how much of a waste this really was. From a show standpoint, a body kit and a nice drop would have made my ride very desirable. However, from a performance standpoint, this introduced a few problems. With this larger rotational mass, my car was suffering from a slowed acceleration (as compared to stock) and didn't seem to handle quite as well. I spent a great deal of money on tires for my new shoes, but they were practically useless without something stopping the extreme body roll.
"So sure, you've pointed out your mistake, but what would you have done different?"
Well, I'm getting to that.
The thing that I should have FIRST considered is that big is not better. It doesn't matter what people tell you, big is not better. Wide can be better, but that doesn't apply to this car in all situations. It's how the entire suspension mends together that determines that. What you guys with the stock OZ rims should understand is that your rims are already pretty light weight and that changing them off is a bit of a waste. All you really need are some new tires and you can drop the rest of the cash into the suspension or engine. Also, don't be afraid to actually spend some money on your setup. I know first hand that it's hard to save up for car parts; I'm 18 and i make $8/hr. Saving up for my sr20 swap is going to be hell in itself. But if you don't want to regret going cheap a few months from now, then just do yourself a favor and wait. Also keep in mind that lightweight smaller rims are pretty cheap in themselves. For the lancer specifically, I would recommend rims from Buddy Club, Volk Racing, Advan, WEDS, Work, Spoon (who cares if Honda boys love them... 8Lb rims make me fall in love too) or any other lightweight wheel company you've found. If you shop around (I recommend using google, yahoo shopping, vendors on the forum, japanese webistes if you can manage) you should be able to find a good deal. In fact, I just found Buddy Club P1 Racing SF (15", 12.5 Lbs) for $540 (for the whole set)... and I'm very sure you could talk the price down. (Check out www.urbanimport.com and go to the wheel section) You can think of lighweight rims the same way as you can think about heavy vs light shoes. If you were to wear a shirt that weighed an extra 5lbs on your upper body, it probably wouldn't effect you very much. However, wearing an extra 5lbs on each of your feet would drag you down quite a bit. You can imagine how this would free up some extra low-end power to the wheels. Also remember that When you have a lower offset (in the +35 region), you are FURTHER away from the strut than if you had a +45mm offset. This seems to be very confusing to a lot of people on here. A lower offset will push your rim/tire combo further out giving you a slightly lower center of gravity (which will result in better handling) while it will also wear your studs a bit faster (even this could take YEARS for you to even notice). If you enjoy turning your wheels though, stay away from offsets lower than +35 on the Lancer.
Next, let's talk tires. It'll be the next rational thought after rims since they inherently need to be wrapped in something. First, outline your uses. Are you going to be using them do drive on every day? If so, where do you live? I live in beautiful, rainy Washington and opted for an all season tire. In a state like Cali, however, you may be able to get away with Summer tires. Are you going to use these tires for auto-x or tracking? If so, make sure they have a good tread wear rating and can grip the ground. If you can afford it, I would recommend Toyo T1-S or Proxies FZ4 as great tires for this car. If you feel like you ride your sidewall a bit too much, look into some Yokohama AVS ES100. Falken Azenis are also a great way to go. I'm personally going with the Yokos for drifting, BTW. If you find a good guy to help you out (that isn't just looking for your money) people at Les Schwab or the Tire Rack can really point you in the right direction. Once again, you get what you pay for. Going cheap will only mean more money later.
Finally, your stance. I'm not sure that I can actually over emphasize the importance of this section. If you are truly performance minded, save up the $900-$1500 and get a quality coilover setup. There is honestly no better way to go. You'll have the ability to fully tune your suspension to the specifications that you need for your wheel/tire combo and give yourself a nice looking stance in the process. Springs from companies like Eibach or H&R are alright, but will give you nowhere near the response that coilovers will. And I feel embarassed even mentioning this... do NOT clamp or chop your springs. Something extra to mention about coilovers is that a good setup will allow you to change for dampening. For those of you doing research to learn more about this, it's not really as confusing as you'd think. For example, a $1200 Tein setup will get you 16 levels of dampening options. This basically ranges from An EXTREMELY stiff suspension (we're talking you can run over a pebble and feel it... well.. maybe) to the ultimate "I'm riding on a cloud girlfriend-setting" setting. With this in place you'll be able to adjust your dampening for a nice ride (even at a low ride height) for daily driving, then make it as stiff as you need for your track days. You really do get what you pay for.
Something else to take into account is weight reduction. If you can manage to do it, pulling out unnecessary things like your back seat, carpet, spare tire (only on track days!) and other small things can do more than you think! Going hardcore and removing all of your interior panels, speakers, your AC module, etc will remove even more. We're talking hundreds of pounds here! I would honestly focus on this last since the lancer is already pretty slow and doing engine mods to compensate will reward you more in the long run. Also, stay away from things like carbon fiber hoods, trunk lids, etc until your engine mods are done. $400 into the engine will yield a far higher performance gain than the 20lbs you took off of your front end. Go on Atkins if you're worried about that kind of weight .

All and all, it's your car, your money, and only you can choose what to do with it. My opinion is stop worrying about other people's opinions on your car! If you like it, go with it, and show them what you can do with it! I hope that this helps some of you guys pick a direction on where to go with your suspension. The fact that I chosen coilovers as the best way to go shouldn't rule out the ES guys. A real suggestion from me to all of you for an awesome setup would be the following:

Rims
Spoon SW388 Rims in either 16x7 (+35 or +45 offset) or 15x6.5 (+45 offset) 15" is 8.36lbs, 16" is 11.88lbs.
Falken Azenis, Toyo Proxies FZ4 or T1-S or, Yokohama AVS ES100 tires. On a 15x6.5" setup, 205/55-15 Tires would be optimal while a 16x7" setup would work best with a 205/50-16 or 215/45-16 size tire.
Suspension
Tein SuperStreet Full Coilover and Dampening setup. You can purchase this from RRM.
KSport Full Coilover and Dampening. Search online.
Megan Racing Full Coilover and Dampening. Search online.
JIC Coilover and Dampening. Very expensive. Search online.
NEX Coilover. Search online.

Make sure you spend some time tuning your suspension to the height you want before you have everything alligned (camber=bad!). I would also recommend that you don't slam your car too low unless you feel like removing your OZ lip kit or keeping your ES style without a body kit. After you have your suspension on the lower half done, make sure you pick up a rear strut & anti-sway bar, and a front strut bar. This will also greatly limit body roll and will give you insane control over your car. Happy Cornering!

-Tyrone

PS. If you would like, I would also give my time to do a write up on the most effective ways to spend money on engine mods. Just let me know

rhyzin

iTrader: (1)

i like this thread. post more

blaze_125

iTrader: (8)

I strongly second that opinion.

I question though. Keeping are lightweight OZ wheel would be nice, but the rubbers on those things are crap. The side wall is way to high. What rubber size would be optimal for those rims(I ain't talking show). What would be the best for hard corners without loosing the rubber because the wall was too high or not stiff enough. I might be talking **** thought, I'm still fairly new to performance tuning(only been around for 2 years), so I've got plenty of stuff to learn.

If you can make it as objective as this one, go ahead

Tristar

iTrader: (7)

I guess the thread is ok, but I figured this was all common knowledge by now, all its stating is unsprung weight is the enemy (heavy wheels), tires are an important role in handling but make sure you dont go overboard, suspension is key (pay a lot, get a lot), and carbon fiber is a waste of money.....

Tires for your stock 15s,your best bet is to go with some Flaken Azenis's. They are cheap, grippy, and auto cross guys swear by them. I know Bobaab has a set on some stock wheels and he loves them.

By the way, I cant quite understand why you say get the small rims, when with extra money forged 17s can be purchased that weight the smae ifnot less than the stock 17s. I understand this is more money, but you yourself state you get what you pay for in the suspension paragraph....

Oh and from the standpoint of an ex tire engineer, bigger might not be better, but a smaller sidewall offers much less flex, and a much more unifrom contact patch under heavy cornering forces. In this case a smaller sidewall (larger rim) is beneficial, but understand that 18 inch rims are rediculous. A 45 series tire is a nice compromise for ride and handling. (Realize that any low profile tire will be much stiffer of a ride)

Z_Lancer_Man

iTrader: (115)

I have found this thread to be very informative. I myself am new to this whole car modding and my next big purchase was a set of wheels and tires. I thought I knew what I wanted, but now I am not so sure. I wanted to go with some 17"s with 215/40/17 tires. I use my car mainly for daily driving, if that and I don't plan on doing any auto-x or track. I just want something that looks nice and if possible, can help increase the performance of my Lancer. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Kurt

iTrader: (1)

I agree with the info about the rims and tires. I thought about getting the 205/55-15 for my stock rims but was unsure if they would fit. Instead I got the stock size in a Yokohama AVS ES-100. It is a great tire, way better than the stock crap that came on my car. I noticed that the car handles better through the twisty stuff. Once I upgrade my suspension to a full coil over setup, I should be able to take full advantage of those tires.

Z_Lancer_Man

iTrader: (115)

Has anyone heard of Big-O-Tires? They are probably the largest tire company in Utah and I have a good friend that works there who can give me a very good discount on what they sell. If anyone is familiar with Big-O-Tires, what would be the best wheels/tires to get there? Thanks.

neilschelly

iTrader: (2)

I'm running 205/55R15s on my stock rims (well, actually, just the fronts.). I needed new tires pretty badly after about 25,000 miles on the stock ones. I only had very limited funding, so I only replaced the front tires with Yokohama Avid V4s in 205/55/R15 and left the stock Yokos 195/60R15s, somewhat low in tread, on the rears. So far, it's been very nice to me with autocrossing and daily driving.
-N

bobaab

iTrader: (5)

this is a good thread that summarizes everything. it may be common knowledge to us Tristar but some people get confused

anyways, here's some opinions for you guys to chew on. if u want a good compromise between performance and cash u're going to spend, buy an extra set of the stock OZ rims (for those of you who own an OZ or LS of course) and put some nice tires on there. This way you will be saving a lot of cash..I got my set of OZ rims for 175 shipped from a guy on here. I spent 308 bucks on the Falken Azenis. I spent another 60 on mounting and balancing.

The Total: $543

This is an excellent price for the performance you are getting. These stock rims aren't too heavy, they are almost exactly 15 pounds each, which is not bad at all. The tires (in 205/50/R15) were 21 pounds each if I remember correctly. I believe this is the optimal setup if you want to go cheap and fast.

Once you have this setup on stock suspension, spectators will start to see your rear inside wheel lift up. Everyone's telling me about this..it looks pretty cool but you can tell how soft the stock suspension is. Even lowering springs would do a lot in this case. But since I want to stay in H stock class in SCCA, I can't play around with the suspension except for getting stiffer shocks. And we all know those don't exist yet.

But if you're unlike me and want to do mods instead of staying in stock class, I would recommend getting those Tein Basics or the full Tein coilover kit. The Tein Basics ($899) will give you adjustable height with stiff shocks to go along. These shocks are not adjustable. If you want adjustable shocks, you have to get the full Tein coilover kit ($1200).

And im sure I missed a lot of things I want to say, but Im tired from writing a 9 page paper so this is enough for me for now.

Kelmar

iTrader: (1)

Exellent post! I would enjoy seeing more and I'm sure it would be helpful also.

Blacksheepdj

iTrader: (88)

kensuke - why not take the info from the first post in this thread and edit it into the other super-helpful thread you made?

EDIT - nevermind, it's locked.

Brian! Sticky time!

kensuke

iTrader: (2)

I'm glad that you guys enjoyed the thread!
In response to the question on why I advocate smaller rim sizes: simple. I feel that it gives the small, low-powered car driver a more flexible performance standing. I whole heartedly agree with the comment about lower profile tires being more functional from a performance visual, but it is also very possible to purchase lower profile tires for smaller rims, giving a far smaller rotational mass and weight (think 205/40-16). The only problem that this introduces is that your speedometer will be off, but it may be to your advantage to only run this setup for track days in that case. a smaller rim with a lower profile tire will also give you the ability to drop further, giving you a lower center of gravity and a more competitive stance.
However, if you prefer to pick up something like Advan RG in 17x7.5 and wrap them up in 215/40/17, go for it! If you can muster the allowance and you want to love how your car looks, this is probably the best route for you. All I'm saying is that the 15s or 16s with the same profile tire will be lighter =)

urbanknight

iTrader: (14)

aye aye, but I might end up merging them or something. This is a very useful thread. Sure, some of it is common knowledge to some of us, but much of it would have been new to me had I seen it 2 years ago, so I'm sure there are others reading this going whoa! It all makes sense now!

I will second the comment about smaller rim diameter being good on low hp cars. I did 2 seasons on 16" rims and am now back to 15" for the lighter weight and smaller rotational diameter. Using my 16s for a little bit of bling for daily driving now (too bad about the curb rash though )

As for tires on stock rims, Kumho MX 205/50/15 is a really nice street tire that grips wonderfully. Falken makes the Azenis in 205/50/15 also a supurb street tire, although they tend to get a bit mushy over 130 degrees. The diameters on these tires are smaller than stock though, so the speedo will be off by as much as 4-5% I ended up getting some slightly wider and lighter rims so I could squeeze BFG G-force KD 225/50/15 under the fender (you can actually squeeze these onto the stock rims if you really want). I am loving the response of them, and posted some awesome times without them being broken in, but at $160 a tire, it's not an economical choice. Anyway, great info, thanks Kensuke!

davyper

iTrader: (3)

very usefull thread , i like it. i preffer having 14 or 15's rims on a lancer, if your street performance minded, bigger rims are really a waste.

Z_Lancer_Man

iTrader: (115)

Very informative, very interesting. Thats what I can say about this thread. Now I don't know what I want to do. I want to do what's best for my Lancer as well as what looks nice and performs well. You've given me lots to ponder.