Dave Mac

iTrader: (2)

Dear Evo Community -

I did search after search with several variants on STU setup/STU tuning/STU prep/STU legal etc and have not come up with much real info on setting up a car. I'm coming from the (gasp!) Subaru community to the Evo community. I'm picking up an Evo 9 RS to run in STU next year and want to make it the best it can be (without buying Motons). I'm working with a popular suspension guru here in the Mid-Atlantic GTWORX.com/racecompengineering.com, York Mitsubishi, and CBRD.

I think we should come up with some difinitive answers for our community to help us all setup our cars better. Again, did a search, nothing cohesive found.

Categories should be:

Suspension (subcategories with spring info, damping, swaybars, bushings etc..)

Coilovers for sure. DO NOT BUY CHEAP COILOVERS!!! KW's (from GTWorx) seem popular as well as Bilstein PSS9's with appropriate valving and spring rates which can be got for about $2k, the customer valving will be in addition to. If you've got the $$$ you may go for Ohlins, Mouton, JRZ, Penske or ZZYZX. Vendors who specilize in coilovers are plentiful on Evolutionm. A good starting point for springs seem to be 450-600 front/600-800 rear. The amount of spring that you'll be able to run is dependant upon; 1. Pain tolerance 2. Quality of your dampers 3. Valving of your dampers 4. Your driving technique (stiffer springs require a smoother driving style). There are LOTS of opinions regarding soft vs stiff springs just as there are fast drivers on fast and soft springs.

Ride height is hotly debated, the truith in STU is you CAN lower your car too much. A .75"-1" drop up front and a .75"-1.50" drop in the rear is a good starting point. Super low is NOT good BTW, you'll screw up your suspension geometry. Up front the drop is not as detrimental to handling *IF* your spring rates are high enough. Here is a GREAT thread on ride heights and some explanation as to why you don't want to go too low. https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=295713

Camber: Can be got with eccentric camber bolts or camber plates. Some coilover systems may give you enough range to get to the following suggested settings. Camber plates are better in that if you need to adjust camber/caster you may with some repeatability since you may mark you settings. Brands of some camber plates are Ground Control, Cusco, Ohlins and several others that I'll add later. Suggested settings look to be -2.5 to-3.50 front and -1.0 to -1.5 rear camber. The camber setting that you end up with is determined by your spring rates and the grip that your tire generates. Here is an example if extremes to clarify; Less spring+more tire grip=more negative camber, more spring+less tire grip=less negative camber. Your ultimate setting will vary due to your experience and driving style.

Toe in/out are up to your individual driving style, 0 and 0 is a good place to start. Again, your own driving style will factor into the effectiveness of toe, camber and ride height. Some competitors add rear toe out to get the car to rotate on turn-in to help point the car in sweepers but beware, it's a handful in slaloms.

Sway bars, in a word...maybe. Use spring rate first to get the roll mitigated THEN use swaybars to fine tune steady state cornering. You will also notice a change in turn-in response if you upgrade the rear sway bar. Another consideration is swaybars are an option if you don't have the $$ for coilovers. Since you can't change the springs as readily as you may with coilovers swaybars (adjustable) would be an option. Hotchkis or Perrin seem to be the most popular rear sway bars amongst the STU crowd.

Bushings: Trailing arm bushings, swaybar busings, engine mount bushings, rear diff bushings and many rear suspension bushings can be replaced with a superior nylon/delrin bushing with NO increase in metal content from stock. Kits from Energy and Works seem to be the most widely available. There are a TON available from Japan but I don't have room to list them all. Keep in mind you ride will become more harsh if you replace many of the stock bushings. NOT all bushing replacements are legal. You MAY NOT add anything that changes the mounting points from the original suspension mounting points. So, NO bump steer correction kits (front of car, the rear looks to be legal) or steering fix kits that change the mounting points. If you are not sure post here and ask. We've got LOTS of National level competitors here that can answer your questions or debate legality.

Excellent thread on bushings from Works. Thanks for the clarifications Jamie!
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...90#post3899890

ECU (custom tunes, Accessport, ECUtec and others)
ECU flash seems to be the flavor of the month. IF you have never tuned a car stay away from doing this yourself. Buy a flash from a reputable vendor. CBRD, TTP, Buscher, Jester, Jake Diehl-for you mid-West guys- etc... all have the ability to adjust your ECU programming. Be sure to tell them what mods you have so that they can tune your flash properly. As you advance in competition and a better tune becomes necessary then you'll need to go to a reputable tuner with a dyno (CBRD) and spend a few hours tuning for your mods and desired power curve.

Exhaust (Cobb, Vishnu, Perrin, Apexi, Greddy, Buscher or custom)
Okay, the best options seem to be: SS Headers with Swain Tech coating or a ported stock (gasket matched) and Swain Tech coated. You may wrap too but Swain Tech is the shizzle fo sho! Virtually any 3 inch downpipe, high flow cat and cat-back will work. Perrin (buy from GTWorx) and APC seem to offer very good HFC's or you can get a custom one made from a high quality full metal substrate core. There have and are a few guys on the board who are working on their own custom HFC setup.

Wheels/Tires (how wide, diameter preferences, offsets, varying offset front to rear)

The most popular to date seems to be a 17x9 with 35mm offset. 5Zigen FNo1RC's are good for less than $800 a set or CE28's for lightweight. There are MANY other wheels to choose from but this seems to be the base to start from. You may choose to do 17x9.5 with a 38mm offset but that may require spacers up front to clear the calipers, like the Enkei RPF1's. If you'd like to try some crazy expensive wheels that are SUPER NICE then you can get Forgeline's from CBRD in any size or offset.

Tires: There are a bunch available but only 3 worth really looking into. Falken Azenis RT615 in 245/40 or45 R-17, Yokohama Advan Neova in 245 width and Bridgestone RE-01R in 245 width. The Advan's and Bridgestones seem to be the tire of choice this year. If you want to make these tires better you may choose to get them shaved to 3/32 or 4/32 to make them a little more responsive and last longer. If you are in a 2 driver car shaving is almost a necessity to keep them cooler. Here's an update for 2008; more tires are coming. There is a "buzz" about the new Toyo R1R tire, Dunlop Direzza and a new model from Kumho. Well see how the new tires stack up againt the standby tires from Bridgestone and Yokohama. (More tread depth=tread squirm=heat)
Weight loss.

Stop eating at 5 Guys fatass! Exercise! Seriously, you may do lighter seats (25lb minimum with brackets to be legal). Lightweight battery. Lighter wheels and coilovers drop some weight too. New rules state that you cannont remove your AC. So you have to find that 40lbs somewhere else. AC Delete will NOT be legal for the 2008 season.

Bling (not an autocrosser forte')



Some updated info added to the opening post. Take it for what it is worth, a starting point.


Updated 01/24/2008
Dave Mac

Silencer

iTrader: (4)

Welcome on the move to STU in an Evo.

You mention "giving-up-a-secret", but truely, not one Evo in STU at Nationals this year had the same set-up or the same combination of aftermarket parts. There were Tein's, Ohlins, Motons, Bilstein, ZZXYZ...(sp), Cusco, etc. Different makes of sway bars, bushings, exhausts, and EMS. I'm sure the basics will be discussed, but there are certain settings and such that will be kept out of the forums. Why would anyone give up hours and dollars of hard work testing for free? That would give up a competitive advantage (slim as it might be) especially now that the class made national status.

You are correct to say the driver is key to winning. Example, Brandon won STU on a 7.5 or 8" wheel, Max won the Pro on 10" fronts and 9" rears. Both drive an STI. What is the right wheel width and offset? According to the stats, there is no "right" answer.

I will start by saying a 17" wheel with Yoko Neova AD07's is probably the tire to run. I will be further testing the RE-01R's against the Yoko's next season, but the overall benefits the Yoko gives seem to be greater. It would be nice if Yoko came out with a 245/40/18.

Dave

CDeutsch

iTrader: (5)

Here's what I've found with the engine so far. My IX MR dynoed 244 on a DynoDyanmics dyno with a Buschur 3" '02 back' exhaust and a flash for 100 octane (conservative timing and fuel changes only). The exhaust picked up about 7hp and the tuning about 17hp. I think Dave is making a lot more power with his setup. Must be the headers, etc.

As for suspension all I know is that personally I need a lot stiffer springs and some camber plates. Other then that, there wasn't a real common setup out there this year.

Tires, like Dave said most are running Yokohamas. I'm still curious about the RE-01's though. Tire Rack has an interesting review:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...ay.jsp?ttid=71

Most interesting part:

Dieman

iTrader: (3)

I can tell you what Jerry and I ran this year, as we are still not sure on what class we are even going to run next year.

ZZYZX Coilovers with Tein Camber Plates
Stock Sway Bars
Stock Bushings
Steel Concepts 3.5" S.S. Downpipe
Stock Catalytic Converter
HKS Carbon Ti Cat-Back
My own Custom tune for 91 Octane (257 horse, 243 Torque on a Mustang Dyno)
Yokohama Neova's (unshaved)
Work XD-9 17 x 8.5" wheels

and that's it. Jerry finished 4th overall and I finished 15th. My thoughts though, Dave is very lucky to have GT Worx(Sp?) helping him out with the Motons. If I could afford Motons I would have them on my car as well and poor Dave's cell phone minutes would be killer as I would be calling him all the time for set-up advice. The ZZYZX stuff though worked very well for us. Technically it's not out to the public yet but Steve will make you a set I'm sure if you wanted them. I actually like them more for the fact that I can daily drive on them without destroying my back as the ride is very good. Steve is also a huge believer in stock to no sway bars so that's why we ran what we did there. The Steel Concepts Downpipe is incredible. Bar none the best money I spent on the car. The HKS Cat-back....mixed reviews. It's okay basically. I would give it a "C" if I was a teacher. We will skip my tune since I am obviously very biased there . The Neova's are a good tire. Are they the tire to have? I don't think so. I think they are better than the Falken's? Yes(Chris, the only change in the car from Divisionals to Nationals was the tire...food for thought). The bridgestone's though I have never used so I can not comment on those. And the wheels I loved. I'm putting different wheels on the car next year but they are coming from Work as well and in the same size(just more bling since Dave beat me there too...). I have 8" wide Work Emotions for sale that we were going to use as a rain wheel but I'm replaing those with the ones we ran this year.

But like Dave said, there are a million set-up options out there it seems. I'm in the middle of revamping an entire set-up on a certain 2004 Subaru STi right now but it did pretty well with the set-up that was on it this year.

Silencer

iTrader: (4)

FYI: Data logging showed 1.13, 1.14g's at HPT on Sunday during the KS warm-up event (RE-01R).

Dave

Dieman

iTrader: (3)

Oh no doubt I will be trying some out next year at some point. Those numbers are incredible though. Impressive as always.

mannymartinez

iTrader: (1)

how about whats not allowed in the class.

i think that makes it easier to work from for most people?

im still not sure on whats "illegal" i read the book whenever i get a chance at work.

russjnco

iTrader: (36)

I'm going to refrain from weighing in with my setup because we were hampered by the 235 series tires.

However, when I'm asked for car setup advice, the first item I tell people is that a set of coilovers which have useful adjustment is a must, I think it's fair to say that you don't have to break the bank there. If you're running an '03 then I would say a huge rear sway and endlinks should be high up on your wish list. After that, a nice tune and shed some weight through the battery and exhaust.

Alignment is also a factor, I ran -2.7/-1.7 degrees of camber front and rear with an 1/8th of toe-out at each end. Personally, I think 2.7 is too much and I'd like to back that off a bit for next season.

I'm still not sure on tires, I am going to try the Neovas next year, a little extra treadwith couldn't hurt!

Dave Mac

iTrader: (2)

I guess I'm really after more Evo tuning theory. We could point out spring rates as a starting point and a weight variance front to rear. I think if we can give people a spread of spring weights to work with (Dave-you don't need to get too specific). I know some people run 700lb springs but most of us can't live with that on a daily driver. Are sway bars with coilovers good? More bar, less spring/more spring, less bar type of thinking. Driving the STi this year I found that running a low offset up front makes the handling SUCK because the roll center gets all f'd up. We also ran only a 50lb heavier spring in the rear but had a big-*** Strano bar up front.

I'm personally planning on bushings, motor mounts, short shifter, turbo-back (custom with a magnaflow muffler). Coilovers from (soon to be named vendor once I get confirmation of program), MAYBE swaybars (I'm not all that enamored with bars). ECU work with agressive MIVEC tuning and fuel maps. I don't think the wheels will have a huge difference but I know the Advans are the tire-of-choice. I'll post up what I'm doing development wise and some reasoning as to the method of development and why.

This is a good start anyway. Thanks for the input so-far guys. I'm going to build an excel sheet with peoples general mods and we'll compare results through the 07 season to see what is working the best for most folks. That said; I'm looking forward to competing with you all next year.

Dave Mac

dmeluzio22

Dave Mac a "Lackey"? Oh no, What does that make me then?

I will call you monday. I have some neat news from the dealer meeting.

Plus, you, me, Don, Adam, and Chad can talk at the meet saturday.

-Derek

redvolution

iTrader: (3)

I'm not competing (in STU or any other class) but I have been slowly closing in on a good street/track setup for an '05 RS.

- started with (new-gen) Ohlins R&Ts and 571/457 spring rates and a 25mm solid bar set to medium: lots of understeer everywhere except on initial turn-in
- switched to 571/500 and eliminated some mid-corner understeer but still not enough and the street ride was significantly worse; tried a bit of toe-out in the rear and went a little too far; car would push until medium/large throttle lift and then the tail would step out dramatically
- switched to 500/500 and found a good compromise but still some understeer; reverted to slight rear toe-in and felt decent with the setup until I added an APR-GTC200 wing. With that wing the car developed a bit of high-speed push.

At this point I finally concluded that the Ohlins dampers have too much compression and not enough rebound damping at all click levels. I sent them to Joe Henry/Paul Gerrard for a revalve and spring change. Now I have 457/500 on the car but haven't installed the dampers yet. Will report back later this week after the dampers are installed.

CDeutsch

iTrader: (5)

Funny, I switched from the stock 235 Advans to 245 Azenis 615's. I think that was a step backwards. The Azenis were noticably less responsive. I really wish I would have shaved the Azenis though. Maybe they would have performed better? Next year I'll probably go with the Neovas and/or used stock Advans for less important local events.

Is anybody using a bigger front sway bar? Probably not, since I think most people are using pretty stiff springs which probably work better for keeping the wheels planted.

MREvo_KC

I want to try a big front sway bar to help keep the rear tires on the ground. I had rear wheel lift & spin at most of the 180's on Wednesday. How much faster could I have been? Hope to find out soon.

#142 STU,

ZzyzxM

iTrader: (1)

Zzyzx

Yep, that's it.

Feel free to ask any questions about our new Evo coilover setup.

- Steve
Zzyzx Motorsports

CDeutsch

iTrader: (5)

What are the details you can share? I'm interested.

Thanks!