Billet control arms, +1 to +3 deg caster, +0 to +1in length.. Is it a boat car?
Dec 8, 2016, 02:39 PM
#1
Billet control arms, +1 to +3 deg caster, +0 to +1in length.. Is it a boat car?
Ok, boat car.. A car that's also a boat isn't good at either, I don't want to fall into that category so looking for input.
From talking with people before it seems people want various lengths, more caster, cheap, light, race mode, etcs.. Obviously these aren't all possible I went down the route of lots of caster and adjustable, adjustable length up to an inch longer than stock, no threads in bending and spherical joints all around. The further I go the more its feeling like I'll got feature creep and burdening everyone with options few would need.
Now I'm about 75% done with the design with the goal of being at least not heavier than stock but that's getting tighter and tighter. I could go to 7075 but that would also make them more expensive.
I could also de-feature it and maybe just do a stock length and +1" length. The whole idea would be that the cost of installing WL ball joint, PSRS, and urethane bushing plus the cost of a spare set of arms wouldn't be much less than buying something a bit more race oriented.
Anyways, attached is where I'm at but I'm torn if its a worthwhile product or I'm just going to make myself something with sphericals and +3deg of caster. People got opinions, lets hear them
From talking with people before it seems people want various lengths, more caster, cheap, light, race mode, etcs.. Obviously these aren't all possible I went down the route of lots of caster and adjustable, adjustable length up to an inch longer than stock, no threads in bending and spherical joints all around. The further I go the more its feeling like I'll got feature creep and burdening everyone with options few would need.
Now I'm about 75% done with the design with the goal of being at least not heavier than stock but that's getting tighter and tighter. I could go to 7075 but that would also make them more expensive.
I could also de-feature it and maybe just do a stock length and +1" length. The whole idea would be that the cost of installing WL ball joint, PSRS, and urethane bushing plus the cost of a spare set of arms wouldn't be much less than buying something a bit more race oriented.
Anyways, attached is where I'm at but I'm torn if its a worthwhile product or I'm just going to make myself something with sphericals and +3deg of caster. People got opinions, lets hear them
Dec 8, 2016, 04:24 PM
#5
Cool, I'm starting to think that's probably the right direction too. Stock length which is applicable to the most people and maybe offer one off longer versions. Would be a lead time on making them unless I settled on a specific extra length.
After feeling my control arms with a few seasons on the PSRS I was pretty shocked at the amount of stiction at the inner bushing. So even at a stock length, its still a big upgrade if lighter, stiffer, no stiction, and greater caster adjustment.
I think with that in mind, going to 7075 and fixed length might actually be able to do 1-2lbs lighter with the extra caster.
After feeling my control arms with a few seasons on the PSRS I was pretty shocked at the amount of stiction at the inner bushing. So even at a stock length, its still a big upgrade if lighter, stiffer, no stiction, and greater caster adjustment.
I think with that in mind, going to 7075 and fixed length might actually be able to do 1-2lbs lighter with the extra caster.
Dec 8, 2016, 04:34 PM
#6
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
Yeah, the front bushing with the PSRS is bound up pretty good. I have been looking into a spherical bearing to go there, but all the "kits" for are expensive, and the hole in the arm is not very round to just press in a sleeve, then press a spherical in...
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Dec 8, 2016, 05:44 PM
#9
I don't know what retail is. I have a partial sponsorship and can't disclose my pricing. If I had to guess I'd say north of $6,000.
If I hadn't started my suspension build yet and picked up a car to take from stock to full race I think it would be a no brainer. It's a lot for the money, but it's a lot of money.
If I hadn't started my suspension build yet and picked up a car to take from stock to full race I think it would be a no brainer. It's a lot for the money, but it's a lot of money.
Dec 8, 2016, 06:02 PM
#10
I would also certainly expect they designed their parts to work together and not within the bounds of other stock parts. They definitely have the latitude for that vs Im building around ACCA rules in most cases and a piecemeal upgrade path.
Dec 8, 2016, 10:00 PM
#11
Wisefab front is about $2800-3000, rear that much more.
The only sponsored Wisefab Evo in USA was Tony Szirka, when chatting to Wisefab owner at Buttonwillow, did not seem like he was looking to extend the favor to anybody else.
You are very lucky.
Tony was 1.5-2.0 seconds faster with more to come with same car other than of course Wisefab front and rear.
That on 1.42-1.43 track, Buttonwillow
The only sponsored Wisefab Evo in USA was Tony Szirka, when chatting to Wisefab owner at Buttonwillow, did not seem like he was looking to extend the favor to anybody else.
You are very lucky.
Tony was 1.5-2.0 seconds faster with more to come with same car other than of course Wisefab front and rear.
That on 1.42-1.43 track, Buttonwillow
Dec 9, 2016, 08:41 AM
#14
What about boring out the hole to make it round and then machining a sleeve that fits in there snugly? That seems like the best option but then it's up to the user to find a machine shop that can do the work.
I, probably like everyone else in here would love the additional caster, sphericals on the inner horizontal bolt and added length. But how do you go about doing that while accommodating different setups? At some point longer axles will be needed, additional spacers for end links, hell even potentially fitment issues with wheels hitting things given the added caster.
I love the idea but I think in the end if you wanna sell the product you're going to need to keep it pretty straightforward. I know in your case its not about making money on said products but rather producing something you want while offsetting the R&D costs by selling them to us. But the same point remains. The crazier you get the harder its going to be able to accommodate different setups.
Dec 9, 2016, 08:51 AM
#15
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
When I looked into this in the past that's also what I found but seems like a silly roadblock. I know Robi used to make a kit but apparently it didnt fit too well and also needed to be tacked in place. How out of round is it? It seems like a steel sleeve slightly larger being pressed into the AL should work but you do run the risk of cracking the control arm.
What about boring out the hole to make it round and then machining a sleeve that fits in there snugly? That seems like the best option but then it's up to the user to find a machine shop that can do the work.
I, probably like everyone else in here would love the additional caster, sphericals on the inner horizontal bolt and added length. But how do you go about doing that while accommodating different setups? At some point longer axles will be needed, additional spacers for end links, hell even potentially fitment issues with wheels hitting things given the added caster.
I love the idea but I think in the end if you wanna sell the product you're going to need to keep it pretty straightforward. I know in your case its not about making money on said products but rather producing something you want while offsetting the R&D costs by selling them to us. But the same point remains. The crazier you get the harder its going to be able to accommodate different setups.
What about boring out the hole to make it round and then machining a sleeve that fits in there snugly? That seems like the best option but then it's up to the user to find a machine shop that can do the work.
I, probably like everyone else in here would love the additional caster, sphericals on the inner horizontal bolt and added length. But how do you go about doing that while accommodating different setups? At some point longer axles will be needed, additional spacers for end links, hell even potentially fitment issues with wheels hitting things given the added caster.
I love the idea but I think in the end if you wanna sell the product you're going to need to keep it pretty straightforward. I know in your case its not about making money on said products but rather producing something you want while offsetting the R&D costs by selling them to us. But the same point remains. The crazier you get the harder its going to be able to accommodate different setups.
I've measured 4 arms, they were anywhere from 5-10 thou out of round. Good luck mounting the arm in a mill to hone/ream the hole lol. The issue isn't with getting the sleeve in, the issue is maintain the inner diameter of the sleeve so that the bearing has a proper press fit in the sleeve.