Direct Port Meth Injection
Nov 21, 2008, 08:00 AM
#16
Very well said!
This is why the HFS-5 kit should be used. You need a lot of volume for that many injection points and the Aquamist HFS-5 is the only kit that can provide the precision and volume thats needed to control such a system.
Evan Smith
This is why the HFS-5 kit should be used. You need a lot of volume for that many injection points and the Aquamist HFS-5 is the only kit that can provide the precision and volume thats needed to control such a system.
Evan Smith
Nov 21, 2008, 03:36 PM
#17
I would stay away from DPI of methanol. Would need to be controlled by EFI. Even though the intake valves would be nice and cool there will be alot of wetting behind it waiting for the valve to open.
One nozzle near TB still the best way to use methanol on a port fuel system.
One nozzle near TB still the best way to use methanol on a port fuel system.
Nov 21, 2008, 03:48 PM
#19
I would stay away from DPI of methanol. Would need to be controlled by EFI. Even though the intake valves would be nice and cool there will be alot of wetting behind it waiting for the valve to open.
One nozzle near TB still the best way to use methanol on a port fuel system.
One nozzle near TB still the best way to use methanol on a port fuel system.
Water would be better for DPI because it will remove more heat from the cylinder. Half the benifit of having meth in a water/meth injection system is to cool the air prior to motor. 6 inches from the TB is minimal.
Evan Smith
Nov 22, 2008, 10:27 AM
#20
Evolved Member
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NNJ
Posts: 2,544
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For water/methanol injection one of the issues has always been jet placement. Closer to the combustion chamber the more the injectant has a direct effect on influencing the flame front in the combustion chamber. Its because of the injectant not breaking down into smaller particles like as with a jet located close to the IC exit tank. The bigger molecules as a result of port injection help the flame front to propagate through the combustion chamber without pre-igniting...........high octane fuel has this effect = resists premature burn and heat spot ignition. Methanol even goes further with this because of its octane value, so if you can tune for the methanol by removing some of the fuel via PCM tuning and then replacing it with methanol and then adding boost you will have the ability to make a lot more power.
Injecting at the IC exit tank for instance, gives the injectant more time to break down into smaller particles and become more thoroughly mixed with the Intake air change and this helps to cool the charge down........the effect is very similar to why an intercooler is used and why cool dense air make more power. A water and methanol mix injected at this point does better at intake air charge temp cooling then straight water or methanol.
Helping to control knock is the main thing being done with water/methanol injection and the thing is that with knock and turbo cars the intake air charge temp is part of the issue as well the quality of the burn in the combustion chamber..........by using a jet in the intake air charge tract to cool the charge AND using port injection you can go after TWO issues that are directly effecting knock.
Here's some images of jet adapters installed for a direct port injection setup:
(Plug installed in the jet adapters)
Injecting at the IC exit tank for instance, gives the injectant more time to break down into smaller particles and become more thoroughly mixed with the Intake air change and this helps to cool the charge down........the effect is very similar to why an intercooler is used and why cool dense air make more power. A water and methanol mix injected at this point does better at intake air charge temp cooling then straight water or methanol.
Helping to control knock is the main thing being done with water/methanol injection and the thing is that with knock and turbo cars the intake air charge temp is part of the issue as well the quality of the burn in the combustion chamber..........by using a jet in the intake air charge tract to cool the charge AND using port injection you can go after TWO issues that are directly effecting knock.
Here's some images of jet adapters installed for a direct port injection setup:
(Plug installed in the jet adapters)
I hope this is an old photo and you have taken the plugs out of the nozzle holders and started running direct port.
Oct 10, 2016, 01:16 PM
#22
Need to bump this back to life to ask a question for those folks in Arizona who will no longer have a decent mix of E85.
Meth/water injection seems like the only alternative other than race gas to achieve similar power gains.
Wouldn't the direct port water injection system seen above be the only safe way to run a water injection system?
It's true that the spray has less time to atomize when the nozzles sit that close to the cylinder head, but AWD motorsports have found many cracked pistons due to the unequal distribution of water/meth sprayers because of their placement in the UICP.
Any thoughts?
-pal215
Meth/water injection seems like the only alternative other than race gas to achieve similar power gains.
Wouldn't the direct port water injection system seen above be the only safe way to run a water injection system?
It's true that the spray has less time to atomize when the nozzles sit that close to the cylinder head, but AWD motorsports have found many cracked pistons due to the unequal distribution of water/meth sprayers because of their placement in the UICP.
Any thoughts?
-pal215
Oct 10, 2016, 02:52 PM
#23
Need to bump this back to life to ask a question for those folks in Arizona who will no longer have a decent mix of E85.
Meth/water injection seems like the only alternative other than race gas to achieve similar power gains.
Wouldn't the direct port water injection system seen above be the only safe way to run a water injection system?
It's true that the spray has less time to atomize when the nozzles sit that close to the cylinder head, but AWD motorsports have found many cracked pistons due to the unequal distribution of water/meth sprayers because of their placement in the UICP.
Any thoughts?
-pal215
Meth/water injection seems like the only alternative other than race gas to achieve similar power gains.
Wouldn't the direct port water injection system seen above be the only safe way to run a water injection system?
It's true that the spray has less time to atomize when the nozzles sit that close to the cylinder head, but AWD motorsports have found many cracked pistons due to the unequal distribution of water/meth sprayers because of their placement in the UICP.
Any thoughts?
-pal215
Mar 10, 2017, 03:47 PM
#25
Account Disabled
There's no point in even adding methanol until you've done water on it's own and got it to work well.
Straight methanol gives massive power gains but it's very easy to blow an engine if not done properly.
Mar 22, 2017, 04:15 PM
#26
Cons are it is extremely viscous, easily flammable (electricial spark can ignite it) and burns clear and colorless. Did I mention it will strip your paint?
Also if you change to 100% you will need a retune.
I ran M1 for years with the biggest issue being it will kill a seal unless the seal is made for it. I had fittings go bad on my tank and a pump or two. A while back now, they started to offer seals and pumps for 100% though.
Adding water reduces the viscosity and keeps it from being flammable. You will get the vast majority of the power potential as well. Long story short, 50/50 is safer to use.
Jun 27, 2017, 08:25 PM
#27
I'm not sure Direct Port injection is only limited to water only, I would say just go 50/50 water/meth and be done - best of both worlds, safe due to the water mixed in the meth.
I too was told that direct port won't atomize well enough and that I should also have additional nozzle further back before throttle body but I proved that to be incorrect and not needed. I have the perfect setup now.
I also met a fellow in Germany (engineer) who has been playing with direct port meth for a long time, he writes papers on the this stuff! He assured me to go with this setup and for anyone who searches for this in the future, here is my setup and results:
Granted this is on an EVO X but essentially the same. I run 4 x 0.5mm check valved jets (check valves built into the jets as it's post throttle body and has vacuum to deal with on lift off). This setup is good for 650 crank hp (and I believe up to 700hp). I ran 0.4mm nozzles but it struggled due to the boost and HP I have (so it's important to run the right nozzles).
This car is a track/weekend car and during tuning with det cans we experienced zero signs of knock, it holds flat at 12.2-12.3 AFR. I'm still on open source tuning as well.
We are not even at the limits with this tune, we feel it won't have any problems surpassing 500whp but it already spins in 3rd gear (and I'm worried about the stock sleeves)
This is a mainline dyno (heartbreaker) and stock evo x gets 225whp.
This is being run on a built block (2.1ltr) and MX1 cams with BW EFR 7163 turbo.
Red line having more boost, and meth turned on being the only difference. We did however adjust the spool further and picked up more down low on the red line, still the top end of the graph is all meth and more boost.
This was with non check valved jets but you get the idea for placement of the jets in the intake manifold:
Meth in the boot original water tank:
I run a BW EFR 7163 turbo:
Here is the new meth setup agains my original stock block and HKS Kai 7640 turbo with a fairly aggressive street tune:
I too was told that direct port won't atomize well enough and that I should also have additional nozzle further back before throttle body but I proved that to be incorrect and not needed. I have the perfect setup now.
I also met a fellow in Germany (engineer) who has been playing with direct port meth for a long time, he writes papers on the this stuff! He assured me to go with this setup and for anyone who searches for this in the future, here is my setup and results:
Granted this is on an EVO X but essentially the same. I run 4 x 0.5mm check valved jets (check valves built into the jets as it's post throttle body and has vacuum to deal with on lift off). This setup is good for 650 crank hp (and I believe up to 700hp). I ran 0.4mm nozzles but it struggled due to the boost and HP I have (so it's important to run the right nozzles).
This car is a track/weekend car and during tuning with det cans we experienced zero signs of knock, it holds flat at 12.2-12.3 AFR. I'm still on open source tuning as well.
We are not even at the limits with this tune, we feel it won't have any problems surpassing 500whp but it already spins in 3rd gear (and I'm worried about the stock sleeves)
This is a mainline dyno (heartbreaker) and stock evo x gets 225whp.
This is being run on a built block (2.1ltr) and MX1 cams with BW EFR 7163 turbo.
Red line having more boost, and meth turned on being the only difference. We did however adjust the spool further and picked up more down low on the red line, still the top end of the graph is all meth and more boost.
This was with non check valved jets but you get the idea for placement of the jets in the intake manifold:
Meth in the boot original water tank:
I run a BW EFR 7163 turbo:
Here is the new meth setup agains my original stock block and HKS Kai 7640 turbo with a fairly aggressive street tune:
Aug 24, 2017, 02:26 PM
#28
Very nice Robos! It's about time people in asia got into this stuff! Last I was there it was all show no go.
I am running 6 additional injectors for meth 1600's 1 in air filter 1 in intake and 4 on the magnus V5 will be pushing the 3071gtx g2 to the limit. Fuel will not be my limiting factor lol.
I am running 6 additional injectors for meth 1600's 1 in air filter 1 in intake and 4 on the magnus V5 will be pushing the 3071gtx g2 to the limit. Fuel will not be my limiting factor lol.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Boostin Perform
Midwest Region
8
Mar 5, 2020 01:53 PM
Boostin Perform
Evo 'For Sale' Services
3
Dec 18, 2017 02:32 PM
LSs1Power
Evo X Engine Management / Tuning Forums
4
May 31, 2017 07:47 PM
