doncarbone

iTrader: (15)

Some of you may be familiar with my 4G69 engine swap project (inspired by Diavlo's 4G69 swap in his UK lancer), as well as my current 4G69 AWD swap involving the transfer of a 5spd awd transmission from an Outlander into my [now] 4G69 Lancer.

Following the hoped success of the AWD project, I have plans to add a Garrett GT3071R to the mix and rebuild my motor. This would basically mark the 'completion' of this Frankenstein of a car (until I decide to put a jet engine in it or something).

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Anyway... I've already begun to collect a growing number of parts in preparation for the future turbo project including new gaskets, Manley "turbo tuff" conrods, Cosworth bearings and head studs, and negotiations are underway between myself and different local automotive machinists and exhaust fabricators over the costs to have my cylinder head rebuilt and a custom manifold designed for the 4G69 head / GT3071R. I'm not anticipating this to be cheap and would like to open this discussion to anyone who is familiar with the requirements of the EVO 9 head swap so I can realistically map out all the costs associated with this head swap as a possible alternative to my current plan of simply rebuilding the 4G69.

The DOHC EVO 9 head swap, given the circumstances, might be of comparable cost as having all this custom work done on my 4G69. For what i stand to gain by having DOHCs and plenty of bolt-on options for the EVO IX, cost-wise it actually might make a lot more sense... but that's what I ultimately need to find out and confirm before I decide to do this.

As it stands, the only full-package turbo solution for the 4G69 is buying RRM's kit which all said and done (shipping, border fees) is going to cost $5,000 out of pocket - then there's all the labor involved actually putting it together. It's not particularly cheap and I honestly don't think for what you get it's all that worth the cost (this is my opinion).

I want to devote this discussion to itemizing a list of all parts needed to perform a successful EVO IX head swap on the 4G69 and try to make an informed decision as whether to stick with the 4G69 rebuild and go the more custom route, or get my hands on an EVO 9 cylinder head (and whatever else I need) and work on acquiring a list of 4G63T bolt-ons that are tried and true to eliminate the need for excessive custom fabrication.

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Here are the estimate hard costs of going the [current] custom route if I stick with the 4G69 head as a mode of comparison:

• $1,300-$1,800 - Cylinder head fully rebuilt, balanced, assembled - local machinist
• $2,500 to $3,000 - Complete custom exhaust fabrication, dump-pipe, down-pipe, charge pipe/intercooler piping fabrication / full piping kit for 4G69 turbo system
• $609.09 - single RPW 4G69 HKS stage 2 camshaft
• $250 - RPW 4G69 camshaft gear vernier
• $245.55 - RPW 4G69 fuel rail
• $369.00 - 02 WRX DeatschWerks fuel injectors
• $650 - hackish 4G69 reflash/tune
• $1k to $2k - my own labor/time + mechanic's time for disassembling motor, putting all the pieces together etc

TOTAL estimate cost, 4G69 custom route: $7,623.09 (over a 4-5 month period)

Granted a lot of the aforementioned parts are to be bought brand new as performance upgrades specific to the 4G69, I might have more, possibly cheaper alternatives, if I was working with the EVO 9 head despite having to source a used EVO 9 head & harness/ecu (if required).

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So what do you guys think? It's 2014 now. I'm sure I can get my hands on an EVO IX head for relatively cheap - but what are some of the other parts that are going to need to be switched out/replaced? Would this turn into an engine bay overhaul in the end (new accessories, new belts, all new harness, new ECU (stock))... or is this possibly a realistic alternative to going the custom 4G69 route as I've mentioned above with a need for only a few key components?

We know a number of the 4G63T parts work in the 4G69 (like the conrods, head studs, main bearings), and even if I stick with a purely 4G69 build, I'm going to need custom pistons anyway... so I'm not worried about buying EVO IX performance parts - it's more a matter of determining if I can offset some of the costs associated with all the custom fabrication and machining i'd be getting done on the 4G69 only to achieve, at maximum, a SOHC turbo build at around 300-350whp (reliably..)

doncarbone

iTrader: (15)

I've spent a bit of time getting prices on a number of EVO IX parts that would act as substitutes to my list above... here are a few:

• ETS T3 exhaust manifold - $966.95 versus custom manifold for 4G69 (part of the $2.5k to $3k turbo kit fabrication)
• brand new evo IX cylinder head - $1600 versus similar price having my 4G69 machined/rebuilt/balanced ($1300 to $1800)
• Kelford 264/260 cams ($569) versus a single RPW camshaft for the 4G69 that costs more ($609.09)

Fuel system can for the most part remain stock with the EVO...

It's just a matter of identifying if to host the EVO IX in my chassis with my existing setup if i'm going to need all new timing belt accessories, new side mounts, a new harness, a new ECU... even a different radiator etc...

CrAnSwIcK

iTrader: (5)

exhaust estimate is pretty steep, even for mandrel bent stainless. that should never cost more than a built engine...

doncarbone

iTrader: (15)

his quote also includes all the intercooler piping fabrication and brackets to mount the intercooler itself, plus the downpipe to mate with the waste gate dump and catback system... still seems very expensive though

doncarbone

iTrader: (15)

so if i get my hands on a cylinder head assembly from an EVO IX (let's just assume for the sake of simplicity/guarantee I buy brand new), what else am I going to need from an EVO?

it's the timing setup - all the accessories, the wiring harness, the ECU that i'm simply not sure about and it's those components that could make this add up very very quick

CrAnSwIcK

iTrader: (5)

don't know about the head swap stuff man, seems to me it would cost less not to do the head swap...have you looked at what Chase has?


http://www.motorsports-engineering.com/main.sc

hackish

I think it would be interesting for you to do a comparison between the sensors on the evo head and the 4g69 head. That would answer a lot of questions.

-Michael

bakuro117

iTrader: (5)

All these prices seem a bit high. For both the stock engine and the DOHC swap. You could make 350 hp with the stock head. Get pistons and rods and Im sure you could make it without touching the head other than the studs. Why is it your having the head rebuilt anyway? Do you have an old motor? was it not serviced before you installed it before?

Here is how I would do it. If you want 3-350 hp on the stock head get a manifold custom made somewhere else cause that guy seems way over priced, or buy one of the expensive ones from one of the few places that make them. Get the ARP head studs. Get stronger pistons, and rods. Use Evo 8/9 560cc injectors with the resistor pack or spend big money on another set. Then get evo intercooler piping and intercooler used off of someone on here. Then you'll just need the reflash and a tune. You should easily be able to hit your power goal with that setup. The rest will just become extra. A lot of money could be saved doing it yourself too.

Now Im not trying to tell you not to do the DOHC swap because I think that is an amazing opportunity and like the Evo8/hyundai swap on Club3g I would love to see the Evo9 swap become more popular for the 4g69 crowd. If you do the head swap you can use all OEM used 4g63 parts from here on EvoM and save yourself a lot of money. As far as the swap is concerned though you will for sure need a new timing belt. But I would get over on club3g, they have several lists of parts from many people doing the DOHC head swap. Not saying it will give you exactly what you need, but it could help you see what all is involved. Also get ahold of member mitsuorder. His DOHC swap was successful and he seems like a pretty nice guy, i bet he would share any challenges he had getting the head to work on the 4g69 block. I would also go ahead and get the Evo 9 ECU and harness if you do the DOHC swap. The tuning market is vastly more open for that setup than our own currently, and many shops are familiar with those options.

Either way its up to you, but regardless there are ways to save yourself some big money compared to what you have posted up top.

doncarbone

iTrader: (15)

didn't know about these options. will add them to my list of options if through further research sticking with the 4G69 head is the better choice.

going to phone road race engineering who i know has both heads to compare side by side. might see if anyone on the forums too has a parted out evo who can take some pictures. michael if i do the dohc swap (evo head, evo ecm), does your GT(X)3071R recommendation still stand? is the process of reflashing the stock ecu going to be the same (uvtune + tactrix)? thanks.

agree. already have conrods, head studs - ultimately would have to decide on pistons dependent on whether i go dohc or sohc. head rebuild is more about achieving reliability/longevity if i'm going to be boosting high. motor is from a wreckyard, but claim is it has 85,000km and compression testing yielded nothing negative if i remember correctly

the dohc swap keeps calling me and it's becoming hard not to want to really consider this option for obvious reasons. i will check out club3g thank you. i pmed mitsuorder but he hasn't yet replied.

what do you reckon a used STOCK evo 9 ecu should cost, as well as the harness used?

doncarbone

iTrader: (15)

does anyone know the engine bay differences in size between the lancers and the evo? i have the performance megan racing radiator (about 1" wider than stock i reckon) and my fear is the dohc head will be slightly bulkier than the 4G69 one which might make for a really tight fit on the exhaust manifold. my chassis is the oz rally. this would also make for an unpredictable situation regarding the intercooler piping if i buy off-the-shelf evo IX parts.

here's the approximate distance im working with (manifold about 7.0", allowable distance to radiator approximately 8.75", fans will be replaced by reverse direction and moved to opposite side of radiator to create more room)

doncarbone

iTrader: (15)

below are the plugs off the harness i could find that plug into the cylinder block, intake manifold and above the timing belt. all it really takes is one different plug/sensor and it's not worth messing around with, do you agree? might as well just get the EVO harness... but would be interesting to find this out, yes.

CrAnSwIcK

iTrader: (5)

you got the harness very well documented...does the Evo only have one sensor for both cams?

doncarbone

iTrader: (15)

would be nice to find that one out. any evo owners know this?

bakuro117

iTrader: (5)

Wouldnt we be able to tell my looking at the Evo9's service manual?

And I know several people on club3g run the 8 head with the stock SOHC ecu I guess it just monitors one cam instead of both IF the 8 head has a sensor on both. Problem we run into would be if the 9 has a sensor on both cams for Mivec or not...

I'll work on gettina 9 FSM and see what it shows us.

bakuro117

iTrader: (5)

Found it.

Evo8 only uses a camshaft position sensor on the Exhaust side. That'd be why the SOHC ecu on the 4g64 can use the DOHC head.

Evo9 uses a camshaft position sensor on each cam. Picture from the FSM attached. Dunno how our ECU would behave with that setup... Evo9 ECU and harness may be the only way for us to use the Evo9 head. Like I said above I would assume they have a sensor on each because of Mivec. Maybe our ECU could still activate Mivec though... It would only be able to see one of the cams though so IDK. Maybe Hackish will know something more.