Case study # 77 - SAFC vs. FLASH
 

I thought that the question about the effectiveness of a safc vs a flash was resolved a long time ago but it seems that entire carrers in tuning are being made on SAFC tuning

I will post more data on the SAFC vs. Flash discussion later - for now I just want to post the sheet

BR Stage 2 - 21 psi - 93 octane

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/at...chmentid=71610

i believe it. my car was a lot smoother and torquier after the mail-in-flash. i had been tuning the safc for quite a while, but the flash definitely was an improvement over the safc.

Yeah except for when I want to run race gas. Are you going to come flash it every time I go to the track and need it leaned out for race fuel?

that's when the afc comes in handy to compliment the flash.:)

{thumbup}

Besides boost cut, fuel cut, and rev limiter, what exactly does the flash do that the safc can't do? I know some might say timing, but the safc indirectly can conrol timing. Could it be because of the increments in which the safc is set at? The safc having only 8 or so setpoints can't be optimal. I honestly don't know why the flash is superior. I personally thought the major advantage of the flash was the fact that it's being tuned by a professional, in this case, Al. Those dyno sheets tell me that's not the case, as Al tuned both the safc and the ecu himself. I had a safc II but was too afraid to mess with it so that's why i'm going with the custom flash next week. After researching a bit, I'm pretty confident that I am making the correct decision.

sUBSCRIBE...

That is a wrong statement. You should say that it indirectly AFFECT the timing. To get the AFR to a richer side in mid range, you are also retarding timing. That will bring your torque a lot lower (richer AFR + less timing). On the other hand, you try to lean out at top end, you are also advancing timing indirectly. That will make your car more prone to knock.

How is it that people still think that "lying" to the stock ecu will be more effective than properly adjusting fuel and timing curves in the stock program?
It is beyond my understanding....

The problem with the AFC is a nut shell is that you are inavriably always setting NEGATIVE numbers to dial in the a/r ratio on a evo - - this results in the ecu running on a much more overly advanced ignition timing zone which always means you are riding the knock sensor and have retarded timing. The AFC may result in higher timing for one or two dyno pulls but after 5 minutes of operation your timing is pulled and rough - NO WAY around it - period.

As shown above - the capacity to independently adjust a/f and timing results in huge tq gains and a much smoother power band.

The safc is a nice play toy but not even close to the same leauge as a serious tuning tool like the reflash machine.

Finally - few people realize the stock ecu has two main fuel and ign maps which are totally different. Many times people tune on one map with the safc and when the ecu switches to the second map your tune is significantly off.

al, can you elabirate a little more on this. ie, one for wot and the other for normal driving? if this is the case, do you flash for two maps? thanx

To my understanding, there is a "life is good" map and a "why is this gas in here?" map and it fluctuates between the two, depending upon conditions.

This is accurate and the fluxuation is dynamic and constant.

The big issue with safc tuning is that very often the car reverts to the crap map within minutes of when it leaves the dyno due to the extreme knock which the car will experience with overly advanced ignition timing throgh MAF sensor manipulation.

The HP gains speaks for themselves, not much to understand there.
If you need more info? Ask David Buschur, Im sure he can help you understand, since he has been using the afc for tuning customers cars for quite sometime.

Are you looking at the same dyno plots as I am? Do you see anything under the curve that smooth in its transition?
Using an AFC to tune a customers car for minimal mods is one thing, but to say that it would be prefered by anyone who has the ability to correct fuel and ignition curves in the stock program is rediculous.
I seriously DOUBT David Buschur or any credible tuner would rather use an AFC "piggyback" over a true EMS. UNLESS it would be for budget purposes or minor modification not to void warrantees.
True Reflashing has been on the horizon for the EVO for a short time.
You can't honestly tell me that you believe what you just posted.
Are you saying that AN AFC can "fine tune" a base Fuel map better than a software package that will allow access the addition or removal of fuel at designated points in the Curve?
All the while not indirectly affecting ignition timing?
You have got to be kidding me.

^^ Can this be addressed?

Al I am by no means knocking what you do or your product, I think the flashes are cool an a great product for someone that can just go along with what the ECO says. But before flashes DSM's had been going low 12's with the AFC with no problems.

The best of both worlds would likely be the AFC and flash combo to accomadate my race fuel question where advanced timing and lean condition is not a big deal when on C16.

DSM ECU's and EVO ECU's are apples and oranges.

Flashes are probably the best tuning tool there is....only problem is that its not adjustable by the end user for different applications.

That is why i prefer a GOOD piggyback over the flash....for its diversity and adjustability. Not to mention ability to log and other functions that you cannot get with a flash. I do, however, think the AFC is not a particularly good piggyback. A couple years ago they were, but a lot has changed in the tuning world.

Soo your saying that the DSM ECU somehow uses magic to calculate the fuel and timing curves for the as where the EVO ECU uses the MAS and the MAP and the knock sensor. I really do not understand how you can make such a blanket comment like that.

They both calculate boost and fuel and timing based on the same things, there might me more overall MAP choices that it has to switch between but the general basis of calculating air flow and thus fuel and timing is the same. But I digress as to not crap up this thread anymore.

Saying 1990's technology is different from 2003 technology. Thats what I am refering too.

It is very possible to go 12's or even 9's and still have a rough power band and no tq.

The point of the flash is that in the right hands it gives you a much borader power band - signifidcantly more tq and near stock like reliability

The fact that the flash is only $199 is just icing on the cake

Except for some on this thread has anyone actually LOOKED at this graph??
Really looked at it.

From what I understand EcuTek will have a dual map setup for the Evo very shortly if not already. I will find out once I get off line. Similar to the Software available for the Subbies. It will allow the end user to change maps on the fly for various driving patterns or events.
I will find out for SURE and then let everyone know.

Also,
As far as the DSM's are concerned they may be able to run 12's no problem, (LOL) but as Al mentioned already consistency was not there. Along with the following.....
Proper Idle characteristics
MAF Resolution and or accuracy without VPC or GM translator
Horrific timing retard
Horrible gas mileage
Poor drivability
Lucky to get her started sometimes.... and so on.
Too much to list.
We all had a DSM and can relate very easily

I used to think the safcII was half decent.. but the more I read the more I realize I need a full custom tune. As soon as I can afford to take a day or two off work and drive 500000 miles I'll be getting one :)

A little off topic, but it just so happens that Al is doing custom tunes in Pittsburgh next Thursday. It would probably only take you about 3 hours to get up here. Morgantown is about 1.5 hours from Pittsburgh, so i don't think Charleston is much further. He still has spots available, so if you are interested, check out the Pittsburgh flash thread. We already have one guy driving from WV for it. It's well worth the drive from what I hear.

I have to agreed with you totally Precision Dyno.

I have friends or know people with Flash and it **** up there car. Besdie that. You can't just run one setting all the time. That's why i love the SAFC II. I can play with it. Different attitude will change the way the car run.. Most people here who are from Socal and went to LACR in Palm Dale which is above sea level. The car run like ****, what good is the flash?? SAFC have been around for very long time and i trust it.

I have one friend Got flash from Dynoflash, his car was bogging and acting up. HE call up or try to contact dyno flash. They always give a bull**** answer. So he talk to TurboTrix, they relash his ECU back to stock for free. All he got to do was paid for the shipping.


Another friend got FUEL cut out in LACR his car won't boost over 14 psi. As soon as we got back to where close to sea level the ran fine. I thought the Flash suppose to take out the fuel cut??

I am going to leave this thread with just one last comment.
I know what the EcuTek software can provide.
Period.
The symptoms you are describing do not sound like any I have heard of with the "EcuTek" software
Now I am not saying in any way that all flashes are the same. In fact they are not. I can only speak of what I am going to be familiar with.
Nor will I speak for anyone elses, TT, Works, Dyno flash and Many others.
I tried to prove my point but can't get thru......
I appreciate your comments and value them. But with my experience I can't justify using an AFC over the stock program tuned properly.

Mail flash $199, custom tune $399
SAFC II $200 and 2 maps custom tune $100, total: $300.

I would say SAFC best bang for bucks. Don't get wrong i would use the flash myself but for only two things which is the boost taper and maybe speed limiter. I work at a Mitsubisi dealer here in Socal. I have a lot of customer take their car to our service and wanted us to flash the ECU back to stock. The most common words came out of their mouth is "Flash my ECU is the worst $200 bucks and decision i have ever made" or "I shouldna get an SAFC"

Vboy, you sort of sound like...
http://www.engrish.com/image/engrish...-dailywear.jpg
http://www.engrish.com/image/engrish/god-tshirt.jpg
http://www.engrish.com/image/engrish/big-banana.jpg

Got Engrish?

Lololololololol

You hit the nail right on the head!

The AFC is a good tuning tool for most applications, especially for its cost. But on the EVO, with just an AFC, you aren't setting up revised timing tables, knock control and a flat Air Fuel ratio like a flash can do. Let alone boost cut or rev limiter changes. Have had over a dozen DSM's over the last 15 years. Now two EVO's. Can't even compare the ECU's in the same sentence. No comparison. EVO ECU is so detuned and much more complicated.
How is cutting back the mass air signal to the EVO ECU going to put you in a safe and powerful area of the timing map? Log it and see, in most cases it won't. Sure throw in larger injectors and lean it out, it will kick out some timing. But it won't be optimum or consistent all of the time.
Am willing to bet that some, if not most, who cry about their newly flashed ECU have other issues going on with the car. i.e. bad gas, worn plugs, boost leaks, boost controller issues, and most important of all, a huge mismatch of components installed on the car.
Few seem to realize the car runs a lot of boost stock, more than most would run on a modded 1g or 2g DSM for pump gas. Then you start cranking it up higher and performance is inconsistent.
I went the flash route on the one EVO. Sure the AFC would gain some power and allow adjustments. But you can't 100% argue with Dynoflash when they have tuned over 1000 ECU's. His database alone to draw from for a customers given level of mods. More often than not his tune is right on the mark.

Wow, seems to be some very knowledgable people on this thread, I would really like to understand what you guys are talking about with all these terms being thrown around that I don't understand, what book/books do you guys recommend to read so I can at least understand this thread?

Thanks, sorry for going OT.

I personally only use an S-AFC, but I do not argue that it is better than a flash. The problem I have with a flash is that it is static and cannot be changed on a daily basis. I re-tune my S-AFC all the time according to the weather (temp/humidity) to make sure things are always running smoothly. I also use it at the track when I toss in race gas and increase the boost. I'm sure I could do this just as well with a flash AND my s-afc, but it's not worth it to me to spend the extra money for both or to wait on my ECU to go through the mail. If I really wanted to, I'm sure I could do it over a weekend or a few weekdays when I was going to be out of town and not driving the car or something, but a custom tune is just about completely out of the question.

My results with the S-AFC speak for themselves. My dynograph with 282whp/260wtq looks very similar to the one Al posted here, but on that same dyno the same day, Evos with flashes weren't making any more power than I was, nor did their curves look ANYTHING like the flash curve in this thread. There was only one car making more power than I was, and it was another MR with everything I have PLUS cams, cam gears, and full TBE. The difference was only 17 peak whp, and the onset of torque was not significantly better either, at least not like the comparison in this thread. The flash on that MR was a CUSTOM road tune, also, but there's no way those things are optimum for all weather conditions (summer heat vs winter cold). The S-AFC provides me the flexibility to do what I want when I need to, so it is the best choice for me and many others. Most of us don't argue that the S-AFC is a _better_ tool, just that it serves our purposes more thoroughly.

Most people on flashes don't match my et/mph, but then again there are a few who do...

afc sucks {thumbdwn}

Stock :mitsu: {thumbup}

My 2005 runs like a bat out of hell.

.

The Ecutek software will allow for larger injector scaling and MAF scaling. We have a few to do here in the comming weeks. As we see how it turns out, we may have some mapping for you until Al can come out to Custom tune for you.
I would NOT use the AFC

your saying with whats coming up you may a "mail in" flash based off custom maps from vehicales with similar mods? The only local area tuner with ecutek is PDX tuning and to my knowlage they've never tuned a Evo. only scoobies. So "do it yourself" is important to me.

Yes, you're probably right. If I had a flash, I could probably run 11.2 instead of 12.2 with this little cat-back I'm using...

There is no way to "do it yourself"
You can however install the ecu yourself if that is what you mean.
I have a few Evo's right now that are going with upgraded turbos along with the EcuTek flash. At that point we will be able to provide some good base mapping to the customer until Al can come out to custom tune for you.
What I may do is share the file with Al and have you guys contact him. That way everything gets done thru one vendor. Al, Travels much more frequently and will have no problem taking care of the customer on a timely basis.

do it!

In this case study, who tuned the SAFC-II?

i know several heads that have the flash and use the afc on top of it {thumbup}

heated
 

This is a pretty heated discussion...I have to say that the only reason I haven't gotten flashed is like others is this discussion, I like the flex of the safc II. Really if you wanted to control timing, there are some Apex'i ITC's hanging around that someone could buy.

the AFC is a good piggyback tuning tool...although sometimes the peak #s are higher with an afc....most of the time the cars with a flash will have more consistant power with a much broader powerband to use.....not to mention they usually turn out much smoother.

my .02

Some of the comments on this thread make me disgusted that such overt attempts would be made by supposedly 'reputable' individuals to steer opinion through oversimplification and attempted confusion.

It's not surprising at all that the majority of the antagonistic SAFC comments are from the guys that have a vested interest in selling their own services. Is it not enough to create your own masturbatory thread in favor of your products and services? Let your results stand for their own and stop slinging mud at a defenseless competitor. You don't see any APEXi engineers on here defending their product, do you?

Bottom line is that the SAFC isn't for a lot of people. You have to have the ability to read an instruction manual, understand basic premises of fuel management, and (here's perhaps the toughest part) not be suckered in by guys offering their promises of a better and more hassle-free engine management option for your evo.

I'm not a rocket scientist, nor do I own a dyno, live by my 'tooning' abilities, own stock in APEXi...yada yada, but I do know a little about tuning my car and have used many devices to tune DSM's and EVO's. For my money, I'd get a wideband, a datalogger, and an SAFC and tune my own car. That way I don't A) spend too much, B) continue to spend more when I want changes, C) have the inconvenience of being dedicated to a particular shop or tuner. And those are just the main advantages.

Saying the ecu's between dsm's and evo's are different is plain enough truth, but when you make analogies like 'apple to oranges' or '90's technology to current technology' it's just not informative and to me sounds like uneducated and unsubstantiated derision.

As far as the timing aspect goes, that kind of tuning requires a dyno. You won't be able to convince me that a road tune will be able to accurately demonstate the dynamics involved and controlled parameters required to properly adjust timing _after_ the fuel is already set. It's a subtle point that few will use. So subtle in fact that I challenge the validity of a mail in flash or 'universal' tune offered from any vendor. Remember Buschur's secret safc settings? There's a reason that plan wasn't executed to perfection and it didn't have anything to do with the fact it was an SAFC.

So go bash the SAFC elsewhere. It does its job just fine.

For you guys that still believe in the tooth fairy, easter bunny, and promises of a 5 minute install that nets your car the best tune on the road, then I'll just be envious, for as they say, ignorance is bliss.

How is you are addressing the timing again with your AFC tuning? Besides leaning the car out with larger injectors. The knock retard table also? Rev limiter? Boost cut?
That may be the point many are trying to make in terms of the flash. You are getting much more than just fuel changes. Least there are tuning options, something for everyone.

It seems you have a lot of anger and negative vibe, but no facts or data to back up your frustrations

Only a totally misinformed and misdirected individual with no real understanding of how the various tuning tools work and why they do what they do would make such idiotic remarks

Here is a very brief discussion of FACTS relating to why a piggy back MAF signla interceptor - such as a SAFC can NEVER do as good a job at tuning a evo as a reflash - period

Keep in mind several points for those reading this

1 - The stock evo fuel MAPS (thats right PLURAL - two main fuel and ignition maps) are OVERLY RICH

This means that with your SAFC you will be TAKING OUT FUEL - adding fuel will only make the car even richer and loose power.

The power is gained by making the car leaner and taking out a percentage of MAF SIGNAL with the SAFC

This results in the ecu seeing less LOAD as the MAF signal is the LOAD reference of the ecu

2 - The stock Evo ignition timing maps have very conservative ignition timing in the normal LOAD zones and the timing tables advance significantly in LOWER LOAD areas of the MAPs which would generaly be areas of transition where the car is going from low boost to high boost or partial throttle conditions

The reduction of the LOAD reference by the SAFC adjustments has the unitended effect of putting the load reference squarly into the more overly advanced areas of the ingition timing maps

This results in common KNOCK and DETONATION which then triggers the ecu to PULL out loads of timing in a rough manner in the whole mid range of the power band

The end effect - which can be tested and verified with a OBDII scan tool is that the SAFC user winds up with very low ignition timing figures in the middle of the power band - sometimes resulting in NEGATIVE ignition timing which kills tq and makes for a very rough power band.

After 6,000 the SAFC actually does quite well - but the lower end of the power band is weak.

The reflash can independantly set the ignition timing and fuel without manipulating the LOAD reference signal and thus NONE of these problems are an issue.

Genrerally the reflashed tuned cars make significantly more tq than SFAC tuned cars due to these reasons

3- Since the stock ecu has two main fuel and ignition maps which it coinstantly moves between - this means the SAFC tune will change as the ecu moves between map 1 and map 2. With the reflash you can adjust both fuel maps so this is not an issue.

4 - I have seen SAFC with electrical issues which cause them to work in a incosnistant manner. With the reflash there is no additional wires, devices or connections to fail.

In conclusion - the SAFC is a nice, cheap play toy which can yield decent gains on the top end of the power band. However, it is not match for a properly tuned reflash.

The dyno sheet posted in post number one of this thread is very characteristic of what I am talking about with the SAFC tuning

Please remember that Buschur Racing has replaced the SAFC with the reflash on all of its staged pacakages - you can see more comparative dyno sheets on the Buschur Racing web site

I can't even comment on the ridiculous post by 144.
It is breathtaking to see such ignorance that seems to blissful in his/her world.

I didn't say the safc was the end-all tuning device. Clearly, if you're looking for all the features available to the unlocked dynoflash tuner, you'll need a full system like an ems. This will give complete timing control as well as the ability to change many other parameters, and one significant benefit even the dynoflash or ecutek touted here can't boast; the ability to switch the car to a map system. I'm not surprised you two vendors haven't brought that up yet. It's an inherent limit in both of your systems.

I like how you conveniently skirt the cost issue as well. I'd be interested to see how much the average custom flashed customer and ecutek (which i realize is substantially more due to ecuteks exorbitant unlocking fee) spends on their vehicle over it's lifetime. Are they really seeing the benefits as far as dollar/performance is concerned? And if you're going to come back with 'you get what you pay for' then it's clear that if they wanted the very best, they'd look to a motec, aem ems, or tec II system.

Al, I'd like to respond to your post since you took the time to construct a thought out response.

1. Thank you for pointing out how fuel tuning works, Captain Obvious.

2. I realize the SAFC only indirectly affects the timing. I stated it isn't the most powerful tuning device and does have it's limitations. My argument here isn't for the SAFC, it's against the notion that owners should blindly hop on the 'biggest tuning fad' bandwagon and take the route of ignorant acceptance of what their shop tells them. And if an individual decides they want timing control and doesn't mind the addition of another piggy back, then they can go with an APEXi ITC or a similar product. Bottom line is that most (not all) of the problem with the stock ecu is the fuel tables.

3. As long as the owner/tuner keeps his eyes on the cars datalogs periodically, consistently fills with the same grade gasoline, and has a reasonable safc tune on their car the dual map feature doesn't really come into play. But yes, IF the ecu switches maps, the SAFC is unaware of this and doesn't have the sophistication to determine that it's Hz changes should adjust appropriately. So I will have to concede this point to the superiority of the Dynoflash and EcuTek.

4. There have also been claims of Dynoflashed guys who swear their car ran like crap from the instant it was flashed, until it was returned to stock. There are always exceptions and aberrant behavior. It is easy to install an SAFC improperly if the instructions are not adhered to. I'm talking about the majority of SAFC owners, and I don't think this point has much relevance in the context of the majority of cases we're discussing.

I know Buschur isn't a big fan of the SAFC, but lets face it. Tuning cars was never their specialty. They're good at developing simple parts like intercoolers, exhausts, intercooler pipes and the like at economical prices. They've got a name because they're usually on the front line with solid real world results and are willing to take operational risks in order to develop products and services for the enthusiasts.

Precision, you seem like a dim fellow, but I'll refrain from further comment because perhaps you're just not good at expressing yourself online. Calling me breathtakingly ignorant and regarding my post as ridiculous doesn't really add much so perhaps you should only post when you have something to contribute to the argument.

Couldnt be happier with my safcII.. made 280/281tq on a mustang dyno.. and the car feels consitantly powerful.

You forgot Santa Clause. :rant: j/k


.

Those numbers are ok, but dont impress me with the mods you have. I used to have an afc-2, dyno tuned by a genious. I put down 269 awhp-244 trq...on a mustang dyno ( mods are tbe, mbc, and drop in filter). I was happy until my ecu started learning around the afc. Last week I got a custom tune by al... with the same mods...on the last run with the car hot as balls.. i put down 300 awhp - 310 trq... just because of the tune. It was all both runs with afc/flash were on the same dyno also. After getting a flash, nothing will give you better driveability, and such a nice smooth powerband, let alone power where you want it.

BTW i have dyno sheets for the non believers...

My flash costs $199 and you can add a SAFC to play with the tuning all you want on top of the flash - meanwhile you have the fuel cut removed, a higher rev limiter and the a/f table is much closer which requires much smaller corrections and has a much smaller unitended effect on ignition timing as a result. Also the stock ignition tables are reworked and optimized to match the modifications of the particular customer.

For those who do not want to do their own adjustments - I offer through the mail updates to the flash at $100 per. All the tuning is included for a plug and play solution.

By the time you buy a SAFC and pay someone to tune it - you have spent more money and gotten a less favorable result

The simple fact IS that the SAFC is a primtaive and simplistic tool that operates on a single plane while a good reflash is working on many different aspects of tuning at the same time to create a balanced operation.

Simply put its idictoic to argue that the SAFC is beter than a reflash in any manner. Its like trying to say that 8 tracks are better than CD's becuase you can buy them for 10 cents at a garage sale.

This was your comment a few lines a go. This is obviously your choice over a reflashed ecu. I disagree with your choice.
Not because of all the BS you mention about having something to gain over the other unit yada yada.
Simply because a reflash can be used for the majority of the customers needs.
Many of the Evos tuned just on this forum by various companys, are for customers that have the basic bolt on mods.
With that said a reflash would be their best bet for consistancy in the long run.
Using an Air fuel controller or any type of a piggyback to manipulate input signals to the ECU is just wrong. IMHO.
No matter the complexity of the ecu's, or how they switch into different maps and so on. Give the ECU the proper tools and conditions to work in and it will do its job right all of the time. Lie to it and it will eventually work around it.
Granted the more aggressive you get the worst the learning feature will apparently become.
Exactly what do you mean by this. Are you infering that either flash programs do not inherantly control timing? Does the stock ecu have some type of a phantom map that we cannot access?


Have you read the thread at all? Does it say what EMS is best for your money?
How can we have a conversation about map based systems in a thread devoted to AFC and reflash tuning. Niether are able to convert the system to a map based setup.

This is not a VPC thread.

If you wanted to discuss the best EMS setup for an Evo then do a search. You may find that what you have said we have discussed several times in may threads. I use and tune AEM over anything else on the market. So selling me on a Map based setup is a waste of your time.

Please don't assume.
You have brought back a thread with nothing but nonsense as a basis and nothing in fact.
Just your clouded opinion about a subject you should really stay out of.


So let me get this right... Al, comes on here and does a case study as he always does. Then he subliminaly sends a message for everyone to hop on the bandwagon.
I'm sorry I thought he was just trying to compare his work to an AFC tune.


Well, thank you for conceding.


144, you seem to be all knowing and oblivious all at the same time.
Your right I do not express myself correctly online. I am a much better people person IN "person".
You come on here and post this..

..and then expect pedels in your pathway?
Were here to confuse and mislead people... yup