Downsides of E85
 

There seems to be alot of people (like mlpilot) and others who have been devoted to explaining the very obvious upsides to using E85. What are the potential downsides of E85? My local tuner told me that there are lots of downsides since the mix isn't exactly regulated and he recommends buying race gas instead. It can lead to alot of block problems and possibly rehoning your cylinder. I understand there would have to be alot of datalogging to do every month seeing the fact that they love to switch the mixes around. Tell me what your experiences are with the 3 classes and how often they get changed at the stations. E85 is very abundant in my area that is why I am so interested in switching over. I understand all the upsides to it, but I would like it if anyone shared the clear downsides to it and having a vendor tune to it if you are not able to datalog and retune your car every month. Just want to everyone to chip in or make it clear what exactly are the risks to doing this setup. I am aware on how to datalog for knock on my car but I haven't learned how to properly tune.

I think one of the biggest problems, like you said, is that stations will vary on the mixes. When winter hits the E85 can drop down to E70. If you use E, datalogging on a regular basis is best. I would almost say at each fillup.

Downside is that the alcohol in E85 eats away at rubber parts in the fuel system. The rubber in the fuel system is designed to handle "some" ethanol, but i doubt for 85% mixture. I know people who've run E85 on a daily basis for at least 1 year and no problems to report. However, nobody knows how long the rubber parts in the fuel system will last with E85. Guess we'll find out in a couple of years or so on how the rubber holds up.

Also, since E85 releases a lot of water vapor, your exhaust system might rust out faster compared to regular gasoline.

Here in California, you wouldn't have to worry about the Winter blend, but the consistency of the Classes is a concern. I'm about two weeks away from making the switch and talking with my Tuner, will be shooting for a conservative tune, just for this reason. It's not like all 91oct or 93oct are consistent, you'll find some inconsistencies from station to station or brand to brand. That's what your Knock Sensor if for. I think as long as your not shooting for every pony you can squeeze out of the tune, you should be fine.

I agree with the OP, there are some inherent risks in running E85. I'm willing to take those risks for the dollar savings over running 105 octane race gas - which is not available at the pump anyway.

IMO, the key is to (1) have a safe conservative E85 tune, and (2) have the CEL flash-on-knock mod with parameters set to, say, 5 & 10. If you see occasional knock - figitabotit. If you see consistent knock do some data logging and adjust either your tune or simply your boost.

:mitsu:

Yes like everyone says, do a conservative tune with zero knock. My tuner said I had a very sensitive knock sensor so He tuned my car zero knock at 23.6 psi. I still had a gallon of premium in the tank so it wasn't all E85. Just switching the gas with 1000cc injectors netted me 43 hp. It was conservative so it's safe just in case the weather or mixture changes. Bang for the buck you can't beat it. I recently paid 3.12 a gallon well under the national average. Look at the figures from the AAA (http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/. ) Per BTU you're only paying $4.38 for E85, but premium is going for $4.53. 15 cents less and you get more power. It makes perfect sense to do the switch if you have the availability.

IMO the Rubber corrosion is a myth.. We have been using it for over a year on an rx-7 and now our evo for several months with no issues.. as far as the mix goes its just like running 500hp on pump.. you have to be careful not to get a bad fill up course..

Other than rubber corrision, since it is a cleaning solvent, what other damage is possible??

The rubber corrosion is a myth!! All cars after 1998 were mandated to be able to handle Ethanol in their rubber lines.

Tired of hearing this crap.

-E

No downsides other than you use 30% more of it cruising, and becuase it makes the car more fun probably more than that.

Pros-

Car runs cooler

Engine is more knock resistant

Makes more power over pumpgas

Smells cool

Cons-

Makes the car too much fun

+1.. also, when we tested e-85 in cwills car it made more power than Q16.. Im jealous honestly that he can ride around in a 127mph trap car all day long and step on it whenever he wants w/o worrying about if he is on race gas.. I love it!!!

Only downside I've gotten from this thread is that you must datalog frequently especially when you are getting excess knock on your sensor and best to get a conservative tune that has no knock during any load, yeah?

Isn't one downside that E85 has more cold start problems, especially in very cold weather?

Says the man that lives a couple hours west of the Mohave valley :)

Yes it is, the greater the ethanol content the harder it is to get it to start from what I have been told..

Scorke

LOL, you got me. :D BTW, E85 is reportedly coming to a local filling station for me. I will be all over it when it arrive.

Smoggy, isn't cold weather for you mean if it goes below 70 degrees? :lol:

Downsides (varying degrees of importance):
- Availability
- Blend changes in Winter (no problem in CA, but definitely a problem in CO)
- Unknown long-term affect on fuel system, but not likely to be an issue
- Have to fill up more often
- Cold start issues

I can't think of others, and none of these bother me. I keep a 5-gal fuel jug with me most of the time - full if on a long drive and when I go to the track, but empty otherwise.

Warrtalon - you use a conserverate tune since you have such different winter blends?

I have just started thinking about doing the conversion and am a bit worried about the variance in winter and summer blends in CO since I go to college there winter through spring. If I have a conservetave tune for E85 will that take care of E70 with no problem? Also, does anyone know if any stations in cali will sell 55 gal drums of e85?

the car that i just set up for e85 only lost 3-4 mpg

So am I. Refer to numbers 9, 10 and 11 here.

I think any E85 station will sell you enough E85 to fill up your 55 gal drum. Should hold about 55 gal. :D

:mitsu:

RRE brought an empty 55 gallon drum to the Los Angeles station to fillup for a girl who ran the Redline Time Attack last weekend. They even hauled the drum to the track for her. Damn, if i was as cute as her, they'd probably do it for me too. :lol:

Illinois has some pretty varying changes to it's ethanol content in E85 throughout the year. So the best idea is to get a conserverate tune on lower than max boost and keep my CEL as a knocksum indication just in case it gets extremely low?

i would say the lower mph/gal
Cold start issues /i think gas stations sell a mix: 90% ethanol-10% gas, and still have issues/
availability

thats all for me. {thumbup}

Nah, just a 2nd map. I don't run E-85 to be conservative. That goes against the whole purpose of running E-85, imo. I just have to pay attention as Fall rolls around by watching my gauges and logs to know when to switch. However, the plan is to try and find a place that can guarantee 85% through the winter.

Off Topic: Briargate is guaranteed 85% having spoken with the owner.

-E

I am thinking about making the switch too, there are now 3 pumps within 5 miles of me so I am considering it. I would like to know more from you guys that have done tunes before.

My cars current setup it a Stock bottom end, Built head, ARP head studs, cams, spring, lifter, etc.. JMF intake manifold. Buschur Cast manifold with GT35R turbo strait through turbo back exhaust (no cat), Greddy FMIC and piping, upgraded fuel pump and 850cc injectors. With AEM EMS. It put down 448 whp and 389 tq on pump gas. I would like to know what size injectors I should up grade too and if I should also do a bigger fuel pump. Like the bucschur double pumper? and what boost should I run with this setup? thanks in advance. :thumbup:

What he Said. This is why I am making this the next mod. Plus I love the smell

If you are doing OK now on 850cc, then your should do fine on 1,200cc with E85 and twin pumps.

What ever boost you consider to be the the maximum efficiency level of your turbo.

:mitsu:

Thanks I had people telling me that I had to go 1600cc injectors for sure but I didnt think that i would have to go that big. 1200's sound much better to me. thanks.

Im about to swith...Get a good tune and run the tephra patch so you know if your knocking. Also, someone here builds guages that you hook into your furl system. It gives you a read out of the percentage of Ethanol that in the fuel.

I was considering having my local tuner make me a nice tune to E85 and then keep my current dynoflash map to 93 and make it my altmap with tephra mod so i can switch between 93 and E85 when i please.

That's what Scot Gray did on my car. E85 tune is my Alt Map. 91 tune is the normal map. That way the dash light lets me know I'm on the Alt Map and Alt Fuel, since normal fuel for an EVO is gasoline. Either way it works great.

:mitsu:

If you were going to use that 55g drum as fast as that girl ok, but if you expect to fill a drum and use it over a normal time frame you might want to consider just how much moisture it will pick up. That is tough enough with stored gasoline and it isn't hydrophilic like ethanol is. Consider just how much trouble water absorption is for ethanol distribution that they have to install driers and separators and can't pump it through long haul pipes like they do with gas. I'd think long and hard before filling a drum to use in anything less than a few days and even then I'd be very careful about keeping it sealed tight and away from moisture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_..._contamination

I live in Minnesota so it gets cold around here

Cons:

-Cold starts in winter, it will start just takes a few cranks

-Fuel consumption

-Fuel blend is sketchy but I had my car tuned on spring blend, it seems the differences in the increase and decrease of ethanol content from the spring blend the ecu is able to compensate for through fuel trims. I don't push it or go WOT in the winter as its icy and roads are friggen cold. My tune will lean out by almost a half a point form the initial 11.25 AFR tune in the summer depending on the blend and how the LTFTs have effected WOT. I have my car dynoed somewhat regularly (3-4 times a year) and things have always looked great so far over the last couple years.

-Availability if you live outside of Minnesota (We have over 300 stations with e85)



Everything else is gravy.

I have a 95 Eagle Talon I switched to E85 back in 2005 20,000 miles 30psi daily on a gt35 and the fuel system is fine.

My 06 IX MR has had almost two years of e85 and 30,000 miles with zero issues. Tons of fun!

Bottom line is just about everyone that is into performance turbo or supercharged cars around here is running e85/e98 or is thinking about switching soon. :-)

Good to know no issues after driving your Evo after 2 years on E85! I've been on it for 7 months.

Yeah, the only part I am concerned about is the Walbro pump as I have heard they don't last as long in ethanol (info from rep at Walbro) but so far so good. I have a Supra TT pump in the Talon and that has had ethanol sitting in its tank for a few years and no issues so far.

Anybody here have a vaccum line pop off their EGR valve from running high boost? I know this happened to several people here including myself running E85 and high boost. I would try to zip tie this hose down, but its a total PITA to reach it. Not really E85 specific, but guys running high boost specific...

yes, we have had a bunch of evos come through the shop with the line off or have it come off on the dyno.

Ziptie the mofo. ;)

A company called Rockett Brand sells what they call "racing E85". I believe it is ~$7 a gallon, though. . . What I would do is call a VP fuel distributor and see if you can buy an empty 55 gallon drum off of them. Load that sucker into the back of a truck or on a trailer and go fill'er up!


CONS
Cold start - on actual E85 my car will NOT start under about 45*F. I have to pour hot water on the intake manifold and intercooler (in this case interheater!) to get it to start. There is a reason they mix down to 70-75% in cold temps. . .

Variability - during the summer my local station's mix is very stable, but in the spring, winter, and fall it varies. From what I've heard it runs 80% in the spring and fall, and 75% in the winter here. . .


SUGGESTIONS - Get the GM flex fuel sensor and the ETOH gauge that has been sold on here. It take a bit of wiring, and is not cheap, but it costs less than a drum of VP C16 (of which I went through 3 the year before I switched to E85).

When fall rolls around watch your AFR at WOT. When it goes from your normal 11.xx:1 to 9 or 10:1 you know the mixture changed. Either mix the pump E85 UP to 85% with the barrel of pure ethanol you bought from VP, or have a second map tuned to lower boost for 70-80% mixtures. . .

How do you get a zip tie into that area? Its hard enough to get a hand in there, can't imagine tryin to zip tie it. Easier to access it from underneath car with under tray removed?

I did it by reaching behind the intake manifold. Its tough but doable. I think what I would do is make the ziptie loop somewhere higher up but not tighten it down until I moved the ziptie into place.

Which is something you should do anyways whether it's 93 pump, meth, or C16 in the car. That's not really a "downside". The only ones for most is availability, cost of upgrading the fuel system if your current setup is close to maxed out on pump (double pumpers, injectors, etc), and crappy mileage. Of course, even these three can be minimized.

A pump gas map for road trips.

Upgrading fuel system will lead to more power anyways so it's kind of a "mod" instead of just a negative cost.

Cost offsets the poor mileage in most cases.

If they had it around here I'd be running it in a heartbeat.

Thanks, i asked Dr. Gray and he said the same exact thing. Thanks!!! {thumbup}

I've wondered if any of the ignition amplifier units or a COP setup would help with E85 starting in cold weather. I've asked this before and apparently there is no one running E85 in a cold climate with an ignition amplifier units or a COP setup. Perhaps as more EVO owners convert or experiment with E85 we'll get an answer.

:mitsu:

I have a Sun ignition box that is good for 30+psi on E85 stock gapped stock plugs with zero misfires ever.

It's not a matter of not enough spark. The problem is that the EtOH does not atomize below a certain temp. It just doesn't go "bang". If we are still going to run 85% in cold temps, we need to get some heat into the head, intake mani, fuel rail, or fuel itself.

That, or go down in EtOH % to get it to atomize at a colder temp . . .

Stock IX with just a Megan TBE (Invidia O2, TP), ETS Intake, ETS IC Kit, 255 FP and 1000cc. Put down 380awhp/364awtq at Reese Tuning last week. Stock Cams, stock turbo, stock ECU, no porting. Corn Guzzler!

I put down 410whp and 400wtq with a slipping clutch on RRE dyno with the same mods listed above. Stock turbo cams no porting

That dyno reads high and this dyno reads low. Or maybe Scot likes to lean his tunes, which was the case last time he tuned mine, using no WB at WOT with almost 12.5, and knocking like crazy.
The point is, I went from 328/326 to 380/364 on the same dyno. That's a 52awhp/38awtq gain with just injectors and a E85 tune. I have dyno charts to back it up.
What was your number before? And do you have dyno charts for just the E85 switch? Meaning what's necessary ONLY for the switch, not what other parts you put on at the same time.

Another downside is too much torque stock clutch needs to be replaced! :D

On an uncorrected DynoDynamics I put down 356hp/371tq at 28psi, stock I was around 220hp/240tq.

here you go car was breaking 400wtq on its way up to peak tq but clutch had had enough. No parts added just e85 baseline for 91 was same day 20 min earlier. 28psi

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/4...5vs91hpfk0.jpg

332awhp on a stock VIII with just intake and exhaust? I knew that dyno read high, but not that high. Wow! The Dynojet I'm tuned on, with a VIII with those mods typically put down 292awhp, just as a reference.
I'm at 26psi not 28psi. Will have dyno charts up tomorrow.

I have a IX with o2 housing 2.75dp test pipe greddy ti ets fmic and arc box. My car is stronger than most IX im putting down higher numbers then most do with cams. To answer your question about the dyno reading really high I put down 317 on gsts mustang dyno with those same mods so the difference is only 6.9% do you know what stock IX's put down on reeses dyno?

You need to change your "Drives:" part Brian. ;)

ya I forgot about that, I miss that car

Here in Brazil we have ethanol for more than 20 years on pump. We have flex fuel cars for almost 5 years too, and flex and ethanol cars, have a cold start sensor, that under a given temp this sensor will inject gas for cold start.
It's pretty easy to do a system like this. You don't need the sensor, you can do it with a button on the dash a reservoir and a washer pump. If you guys need a picture, just let me know.
I also recommends that if you do not drive your car at a daily basis, you should have your injector cleaned more often. At least we do it as we have pure pure ethanol on pumps.

The corrosion issue, is not a problem anymore and if you have a stainless steal exhaust you will be fine for several years.

On Reese Dynojet, my IX with Megan DP TP CB, ETS Intake, ETS IC w/LICP and UICP put down 328/326. This is in line with most IX's on stock Cams and stock Turbo on 91oct. We only added 3psi w/1000cc and E85, with a gain of 52/38.