got new flash uploaded...
 

well got my new flash loaded and still have a lean idle...lean like 16.8+ off the scale. And before the engine is wam it goes lean if under 15% throttle and cuts out. Im not dumb when it comes to altering the fuel maps but on the other hand its not my place to be especailly when i paid for the flash.

Whats everyone's inputs or suggestions?

so you're saying that this is after loading one of Al's EFlashes? oh no! i hope these maps al is selling are reliable and problem free because i was hoping to purchase one as my final tune as i'm not really comfortable tuning myself yet. this is the first i've heard of a problem with al's maps using ECUFlash, hopefully it's the last. :eek:

at startup I am seeing 15.7-15.8 AFR. Once I give the throttle a blip it settels down to 14.6-14.7.

Are you sure there are no exhaust leaks before the WB sensor?

Please, hold the ketchup !

We are talking about his idle

he could have an exhuast leak or improper o2 sesnor placement etc

All he would have to do is adjust the fueling in idle assuming his reading is accurate

BTW - did you read his mods ????

Tial BOV - big idle problems with a race VTA bov

I have no leaks. stock turbo & o2 housing. The WB is about 6" from the turbo. Right after the DP bends. And yes the sensor is accurate. Its brand spankin new..Bosch 5 wire for aem uego. I know its reading correctly. .. Its about the same a/f/r it was when i had just a mail in flash. A little more lean at idle and a little more rich @ WOT under a load. I really dont have any complaints. Just hope that i could get the accel under 15% throttle fixed and a little more rich at idle.

I know for fact the bov is not leaking, and i have pressure tested the ic & piping for leaks. all i could test it for was 42 psi...and all is well. I didnt just jump on here to throw a fit and complain. Just wanted to know what the other users have to say and maybe their a/f was simillar.

6 inchs from the turbo is to close........ your wideband should be right before the cat @ 12 o'clock

acutally the only thing it will do is burn the sensor up faster.....and i suppose if i went out there with a measuring tape i would find it farther away than 6" because its after the bend on the DP so if i were to go measure it again it should be further back. it doesnt really matter what angle the 02 is as long as the exhaust gases have direction of flow being not directly after a bend. so as long as the sensor is in all the way to get good flow around it. it should be just fine.

Correct me if im wrong.

one more thing i might add... if it was reading inncorrectly then how would it cut out when the engine is not warmed up and below 15% throttle and the WB shows lean.

Or at 2 or 10 o'clock right before the cat.

I have one of his flashes, and it idles 14.5-15.0 perfectly....with my hks 272's.

EiEVO Here's my simple suggestions.

1. You should learn that a wideband sensor is not meant to be mounted 6" from a turbo. Read your AEM UEGO install intructions. 36" from turbo.

2. You should also learn to use private communication before you come crying out on the forum. Don't ruin a good thing (Al offering EFlash!) by being too stupid to use it properly.

-Gabe

Forgot to add. VTA is for idiots or standalone/speed density.

This is strait from the Innovate LC-1 Manual with the Bosch Wideband Sensor


"Do NOT install the Bung below the 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock position.
Condensation can form in the exhaust pipe and permanently damage the sensor.
6 o’clock is the absolute worst position to mount the sensor."

"The maximum temperature of the sensor at the bung (the sensor hexagon)
should not exceed 500 oC or 900 oF. If these temperatures are exceeded in your
application you should either install a copper heat sink (instructions below) or the
Innovate Motorsports Heat-Sink Bung extender (HBX-1).
The bung extender is recommended for situations where airflow is restricted or
the encountered heat is higher than a heat sink can handle."

1. Im not an idiot
2. Ruin eflash....? LOL
3. I install aem UEGOs just about daily..... I have been to hawthorne, CA for aem EMS class and i have been using AEM EMS for about 3 yrs now. Look up on their dealer search. Extreme Imports, Springfield mo. yea. not that it matters to anyone on here but i own the shop. As for the wideband...I think they say 1.5" or so but thats so they dont have issues with the heat killing the sensors. It woulnt be incorrect with it there. But i have never had issues as long as its about a foot or so after the turbo. Im new to the evo scene and thought i would give AL's experience and ecuflash a try. Its not anything like a full stand alone like the ems so i dont want to jump right in on my $30,000 car.. I thought i would give it a whirl and see what i come up with with his flash. . . And in no way shape or form am i mad or upset with al. The only reason why i posted this question for everyone else to read is to see if their flash has their vehicle reading above a 16.5 a/f/r at idle. I know it wont hurt the car just from what im used to: it dont like it and i would prefer to have it a little fatter. Thats all..But if everone elses a/f/r was this lean then i suppose i should believe that its his way of tuning. No big deal...I will just have to mess with the software a little to fatten it up a bit. I havent even looked thru the software and such. Its my daily driver and i perfered to keep the stock ecu and mods pretty simple so the stand alone isnt a must have situation.

I suppose i will learn the software and tune it myself. No big deal. I expected everyone to jump me on this.

Since the idle is closed loop controlled it would be abnormal to have a very lean a/f reading with stock injectors - unless

There is a vac (boost) leak

The air filter is distorting the maf sesnor reading

or

the reading is not accurate


I would like to add that the E FLASH! is a base map inteneded to be generaly helpful in setting up your car and will in 99.999 % of cases actually run a car with typical mods without any adjustment what so ever

Once you have a E FLASH! installed you should be able to just fine tune the a/f ratio with a global fueling adjustment and the tune should be dead on

I think my LC-1 WB sensor recommended that it be placed 8" to 10" from the turbo, which in all practical terms means installing it right before the cat.

But like you said, all you will do is shorten the life of the sensor. If you are OK with that, well... umm... ok... :thumbup:

at one time i thought there might of been a boost leak but i was unsure and still am.. But anyways i ended up changing out the couplers and from worm clamps to t-bolt clamps. But yea anyways.. i will fine tune it and see how it goes. I'll try to get a grasp of the charts and maps.. I took look at it for a minute but is there a way to pull the tables up in graph form?

Yea... i dont have a cat. I dont have to worry about state inspections.. I do my own. But as for the life of the sensor. Its only in the car for tuning and for when i am checking the a/f/r after this flash. After its all finished it will be taken out. But anyways...

{pcfreak}

Let's see.

I don't care if you own a shop. That really doesn't prove you know what you are doing. In fact your posts point in the opposite direction. With 3 years of AEM ems experience I would have guess you could make your own base map. Instead you pay for one and come crying clueless on here. My guess is your car wasnt even running right before the flash..But undoubtedly you'll say "oh it was perfect"

AEM states: "Mount the 02 sensor in the exhaust system at least 18 inches downstream from the exhaust port. If you anticipate high egts (over 800c), run a turbocharger, run at high RPM's for an extended period of time, or plan on runnng leaded race fuel then you must mount the sensor at least 36 inches downstream of the exhaust port as all of these can cause the sensor to overheat"

I guess unless you tune real fast, that sensor is going to be subject to those extremes 6" from the turbo's outlet. But hey, you are the one who owns a shop right? The guy who's been to classes on EMS, but is afraid to try his skills on his own vehicle......................

Sounds like a possible intake leak. Is this just at start up - before you go driving around? I would assume drivability would be compromised with the TiAl BV.

The guy just said he posted to find out if others are experiencing around the same a/f at idle. He also said in a round about way he doesnt care about the life of the wb due to placement. I dont understand why you take it upon yourself to bash his tuning skills when one, youve never met him or had him tune your car and two, thats not his original question. :rolleyes:

Back to the original post, mine idles around 14.2-15... I would have to agree with the suggestion of a vac leak...

We've had Probably 8 cars come in over the last 2+ years that have Al's Tune on them. Of those 8 most idle about where they should. They all get a little rich for my taste upon WOT pulls on the dyno. However, if I was Al and selling a mail-order product such as that I would probably ship them out the same way. We however did see one car that the Idle AFR's were absolutly horrible and even worse at full throttle. In fact they were so bad the car wouldn't pull past 5000 RPM's as it would go so rich. We tried everything we could think of on that car to make sure it wasn't mechanical. I believe Al re-flashed that car though for him and now it seems to be running better...although not great. I don't think the problem though lies completely with Al's tune as I have seen quite a few of his cars run very well on the dyno, but that seems to be the only thing that has begun to fix the problem. I'll see him again on Monday and we are re-tuning the car for him so I will no more then. So, I have seen it before with Al BUT I can't be 100% positive it has anything to do with his tune and it's also very rare. I do agree though that it should have been taken up privately.

About the Wideband deal though...It's not going to matter where he puts it in terms of location. As long as there are no leaks it will read fine. I just wouldn't leave it on there very long as it will not live for any extended period of time at all.

Before anyone goes too crazy..

Have you used an OBDII Scan tool to see what your fuel trims are.. If their some positive value over 18% its likely it can't adjust anymore..

1) When you start the car, it runs lean
2) After the car is warm, does it continue to idle lean?

I have some suggestions for you once I can get a closer idea of what is going on...

The only time closed loop will idle lean is if the adjustment is so far out of range that the trims can't adjust for it .. so we'll go from there, also verify that if the car does always run lean, that its actually going into closed loop (OBD_II Scanner)

If its out of range, then there are quite a few things you need to check, first and foremost, verify your BOV is closed at idle and not venting a little, make sure there are no leaks, including around the MAF sensor, or some other location where unmetered air can pass into the engine bypassing the airfilter and MAF..

Check your MAF sensor honeycomb for damage...

Exhaust leak, vacuum leak, etc..

With stock injectors the car should not require much a/f correction to maintain 14.6 - UNLESS there is some mechanical problem - I have listed several possible ones above and so have you

A Tial BOV has no place in a MAF sesnor equiped car IMHO

In any event if the car has some unusual maf distortion or other condition that requires more feuling upon start up that is easy enough to correct

Yeah no doubt... Though if the valve stays completely closed at idle, under vacuum, it will only be a problem when he lifts off at low RPM and low loads.. It obviously has no legitimate use to VTA on a MAF equipped car.. Definitely agree with you there..

I eluded to the same stuff you said.. I'm thinking there may be a vacuum leak somewhere that would throw the car into a lean mode (Where the trims are so out of range they can't adjust any longer) Or maybe the MAF sensor is cocked on the intake pipe allowing it to draw unmetered air in..

But its definitely not the tune, it just can't be with stock injectors (as you said) since you would have something pretty leaky going on to get it to idle like that (Besides being untuned with cams)

Al can be more specific about the BOV ?? how does the BOV VTA have to do with lean idleling?

some BOVs leak under the vaccum.Therefore, you get low MAF readings(air is going through the BOV instead of intake filter).

thanks

Yep, there are two conditions that can happen when the BOV is partially open under vacuum.. On my car, the valve would be slightly open (and actually most cars with the stock DV are the same way) and you could feel air escaping from it since engine vacuum would draw the valve open slightly, and there was a small amount of positive pressure in my pipe.. in my case it resulted in a rich condition, In other circumstances there may be no positive pressure in the pipe, and therefore the engine idle would draw in air through that leak, hence unmetered air, typically that would happen if the exhaust volume was low enough to not be spinning the turbo slightly at idle, which would result in a negative pressure in the upper pipe.. Since he's running cams, the conditions could be met for the BOV being the culprit.. But he really needs to go through everything to find a possible leak..

Both occurrances are normal, and the reason why there MUST be recirculation, using a BOV with enough spring pressure to stay sealed at idle and low RPM, would result in fluttering, possible compressor surge, RPM rise at part throttle shifts, and other undesirable results when driving the car.. Hence the reason why even if your VTA "Works" fine, its in reality not working right at all..

Finally, If the cams are installed "Straight up" 0/0 with aftermarket, or used stock cam gears, idle vacuum will be lower, combined with the idle restrictions and airflow (without idle tweaks such as increased timing, fueling, and raising idle speed) would result in very low MAF readings for his idle RPM, and that WOULD result in a very lean idle (out of scale for the trims to fix)


What RPM is your car Idling at? Do you have the ability to view any sensor data such as Karmann (MAF) Hz? If the value is lower than 30hz, it could result in an out of range lean condition, you should also be idling at 950rpm or a little higher with cams (My car idles at about 975-1100rpm with 280s)

I know for sure the BOV is not leaking at idle i have tested that theory and it only go leans when the engine is not warmed up and if you hold the throttle around 12-15%. If you give it more or less its fine. I got another new sensor and got a better a/f/r reading at idle. It idles around 14.7.-15.5 and does well at maintaining it. Warm or cold. I am starting to hate the TiAL bov just because VTA when coming to a stop...But i knew i would have a dip in the rpm's before i installed it. I just had it layin around and it was pretty much a free bov for a spur of the moment install. But after dealing with it.. Its gonna go. As for the honeycomb for damage... I dont see anything really abnormal eccept 2 of the small combs are slightly bent. From my experience with other dsm's in the past i wouldnt think it would be bad enough to cause a issue. Then again im new to the evo and dont know how sensitive they are. ANd when i mean bent...Im talking about hardly even noticeable. Let me know if anyone has and other input.

HKS 272's with hks gears. Set at zero. The maf is reading 58-60 hz at idle when cold. The car idles around 1000 rpm's.