Speedlimit

Hi everyone,

I am writing this as a member, not the owner. Only spt can speak officially for the site.

As far as I know, there are two issues. The largest is site exposure to unknown liability. Is it legal to copy purchased maps? Would a vendor sue the site and the individuals involved? Do they have a case? Would they win? We don't know and neither does anyone else here. I do know that defending a lawsuite is expensive regardless of the merit. The decision is easy and businesses do it all the time; reduce the exposure. IMHO the legal opines here are meaningless when it is not your *** at risk. And I assume that Mitsubishi, Ford, Chevy and Toyota etc. would have moved to protect their rights by now, considering the number of years their roms have been published and modified.

The second (Jack is correct) is a courtesy to our vendors. Regardless of what you think about vendors, they have provided innovative products and services. Reading, modifying and writing to ECU roms is not new to the automotive world, but it was introduced for the Evo by our vendors. Many owners purchased inexpensive tunes that better matched their modifications. The incentive for further innovation pretty much goes down the drain if their products are copied.

And I actually have a third point which probably swings more toward honesty than courtesy. If I purchase a product that I clearly understand is for my personal use, (downloaded games, music ) I feel a moral obligation to not hand it out for free. It seems a bit dishonest to purchase the product then argue the vendor has no rights.

Speedlimit...

CBRD

iTrader: (60)

this is a tough issue..

i feel biased towards this being the fact that "experience cost money"

when i get paid 650 a day to coach younger race drivers... they arent paying me for the amount of work i do at the track, they are paying me for what i know...

i feel this is of the same respect with tuners... you arent paying them for what they change, mapping or otherwise... you are paying for the fact that they've made their own mistakes, invested their own money, and have come up with the knowledge and experience as a result.

i do think ecuflash is outstanding.... from the aspect that, i have customers now that want a flash, where before we'd use a utec etc to do mapping, because we were comfortable with it... we can now use this platform... and basically, our time is on the dyno... and that is it....

did i miss the point??

cb

mchuang

iTrader: (11)

IMO A base flash shouldnt be a problem since it is not every going to be exact and will eventually still have to be altered because the timing wont be dead on and the fuel wont be dead on. But a custom tune for a car is totally different. Only reason why I like the idea of posting maps so you can gain other peoples perspective of your tune and what they think about it. I would never want to use anyone elses map on my car unless I altered it specifically for my vehicle anyways. That is why even when I got a mail in flash, I threw an afc on right away so that way I can at least get my afr on the money.

Sean@Iveytune

iTrader: (14)

Why don't you guys tell the tuner your intention is to copy the tune or have others look it over before they perform the service. Give the tuner a chance to make the decision. If he agrees then fine.
It is dishonest in my opinion to go to someone to get tuned fully knowing that you plan to share the information.
If the user really was going to do his own tune in the first place then why bother even using the professional tuner. I think it's simple, there is an attempt to steal ideas and methodolgy to accelerate ones own learning by using info aquired from these tunes.
Why share tunes? Just buy the cable and start banging it out.

People spend alot of time to learn the characteristics of these vehicles and what they respond to, unfortunately you can look at the map and see simple #s which perhaps took months to arrive at.

Fair is fair.


Sean

Sean@Iveytune

iTrader: (14)

I Don't agree.
I think if you are going to buy the cable and mess with your own tune(Done by a vendor) in your car that is one thing. But to share that tune with others I cannot say I agree with that.

Imagine, 10 guys in a neighborhood get the same package say from BR, exact parts, then one comes for a custom tune. You then tune the car and he passes it on to 9 of his buddies, is that fair? Do you think any tuner is going to spend time to further develop if the value is nil?
Perhaps I am biased but I know I wouldn't be doing that if presented with the facts.

Legality is one thing, and I am not taking any position based on legality. I think ethically it's not right to copy someones work, and not many people hired to tune a car will want their work copied and blasted all over the internet.


Sean

JohnBradley

iTrader: (30)

While I agree with Sean that copying from one person to the next is unethical concerning base flashes or otherwise, I offer this into evidence.

Is it fair for the consumer to buy a Brand X base flash, then when the ability to chart the change from stock you learn that was minor if any change? Resetting rev limit and stationary limits, maxing Wastegate duty cycles and boost limit does not in mind take months to arrive at. Some of the values such as boost error correction probably will take alot of time. For the most part though 90% of my flash was maxxing values, how is that tuning?

Dayton_EVO

iTrader: (3)

My thoughts exactly!! Excellent write up, you cut to the bone with that one. I made a similar write up on here some weeks back when this stuff started, but I think is was locked or deleted

240Z TwinTurbo

iTrader: (25)

A tuner must be suspect of everyone that is provided a tune. Knowing that people share information and the ability to access maps using such software as ECU Flash will guarantee that a tuner's knowledge is accessed. This is fact and something that must be taken into consideration by those who seek to make a living by providing generic and custom tuning.

This is a huge shift in tuning that has evolved over the past few years with the ability to access the stock ECU and make changes. Let me ask this question, is it fair that we have accessed the maps that Mitsubishi spent millions of dollars developing, but want to cry because a tuner can no longer make $50. To me, the cries to protect the custom tuner seem hypocritical.

The tuner must seek some binding contract when providing the custom tune. Otherwise, they can only sit back and cry when their tune is posted for everyone to see. Even then, the cost to pursue action is expensive. I am not even sure the custom tuner has a leg to stand on considering they wish to copyright information that is owned by Mitsubishi. From the tunes I have seen thus far most of the stock map is retained and only boost settings and full boost timing/fuel values have changed.

Seems to me that Mitsubishi would take exception to a tuner trying to claim copyrights to such information. Can you change a few lines within a work from Shakespear and then claim it was your own? I think not, so why would anyone think that changing a few values within a map that was generated by Mitsubishi be any different?

This forum was setup to allow those of us who want to tune ourselves the ability to do so and share such information. Knowing that ECU flash exits it is my opinion the moral argument should be saved for the confessional.

BTW, I have no problems sharing any information with folks when I begin making mods to my EVO IX. That is only after I make changes to a custom tune that was sent to me as a reference

In closing, this website has requested that such information not be shared so I will not post anyone else's maps without their permission, but will make my information available when I reach that point.

mchuang

iTrader: (11)

Sean I definetly agree with you regarding custom tuning. But in reference to a base flash which is pretty much just paying someone to remove stock limits(rev limit, boost taper, fuel cut, etc)since you dont have the hardware and software to do so is totally different. I mean there is not skill involved in doing that like custom tuning. All you are doing is changing some set parameters from factory, which anyone can do since they have the software.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

I generally agree with the tuners from a moral principal, which is if you pay for the tune, then its in yours and the tuners best interest to not share it.. Same with music files and anything else.. This to me is a courtesy and not in any way governed (in my heart) by anything with legal ground... A respected tuner will get respect from respected clients..

I have however seen enough tunes to see that there are some tunes that ALOT of time went into doing, and some that looked like an ape randomly filled each box.. When you compare the stock rom, with the tuner roms, most have between 1-5% of the original data changed.. If this were DNA, that would make the difference between a man and an ape... However this is not enough difference to distinguish it as a completely unique work..

I really doubt there's alot of "information" one can get from a tuners map.. Other than a starting point for your own mods, if someone makes a map for your car.. The numbers really don't mean much without knowing all the details of the car it came from and are therefore of very little educational use.

What they DO have as value is the ability to allow someone to see very clearly the quality of the work being put into their tunes.. And how much time is put into the entire package of drivability, and not making WOT runs..

You'd be surprised how many maps I've seen that were done for cars with altered fuel injectors and the scaling features were never touched, additionally only small portions of the open loop maps appeared to get any real attention.. WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THE MAP IN CLOSED LOOP and part throttle driving? In order to get a car tha runs well, you need to transition between open loop and closed loop, and from your WOT tuning to your part throttle tuning (Especially if the car is driven hard on a road course where you frequently do not use WOT)

I have seen 4 cars in my area which were all tuned with a reflash, all of them had fairly poor idle and fuel trims at idle that were 20% or more shifted (basically as if you left the idle fueling columns stock for 550 injectors and installed 660 injectors) 3 of the cars had upgraded injectors, and 1 only had basic bolt-ons (one being an aftermarket intake that definitely threw off the idle airflow and part-throttle low RPM airflow)

Let the buyer beware.. like I said, the custom and base tunes you are buying are really of no value to someone who wants to do it themselves, unless its for their specific car for their own use, it really has no value.. Even sharing other peoples maps has very little value without their methods being documented.

I guess what it comes down to is my level of experience allows me to be sympathetic to the tuners wants and needs, but I have no need for their services.. I could never subject myself to the grueling schedule and demanding customers.. Give them a bit of a break and a little courtesy and honor their skills at the least..

From the other side..

Tuners need to expect from now on, that their tunes will be scrutinized by those more skilled than the average customer, and that they should let their work speak for itself. Also, you must give respect to get respect, and therefore if tuners want to continue to get business, they cannot be primadonnas who have a take it or leave it attitude.. (In all honesty all the tuners I have met in person are not this way, and are in reality some of the nicest people I've met) But there are a few out there..

chmodlf

iTrader: (19)

Speedlimit. With all due respect I agree in general with what you say. However the threat of a lawsuit IMHO is just that. And you are correct in saying that it can be an expensive and uncomfortable experience. However as you are aware practically anyone can bring suit against another party--sometimes with the weakest of cases. Sometimes lawsuits are done mearly to harass the other party, to deter future activity and sometimes with just cause. Most "good" attorneys will not tell you the chances of your case being won, even if you ask them directly! It is all about billable hours...

That being said if I were in Evom's postition I would take steps to avoid any suits!

My point about Mitsu was not about them bringing suit against anyone. As most of us are aware the auto division has their hands full just trying to sell cars and stay profitable. My point was that in the defense of tuner vs. whomever any good defense would ask how much of the code did the tuner write? None. And the next question would be who wrote the code then? Mitsu. Did you have permission to alter and then profit from Mitsu's property? No. How much did you alter the values in the code? 2-5% (arbitrary percentage). Etc. We won't even get into the warranty issues. You get the idea.

The point here is not to say that we should put tuners maps on evom just to give an opinion on the legal side of the equasion.

DynoFlash

iTrader: (91)

Jack

The reality is that the pioneers of Evo flash tuning (in the USA) such as Works, Dyno Flash, Turbo Trixs, and Vishnu all initially used a Tech Tom platform which only included basic fuel maps and ignition maps and the rest of the tuning parameters were up to the individual tuners to unlock through trial and error

I can tell you that using a raw hex editor to tune Evos is a lot more difficult than with the present interphase

I had a lot of success through trial and error to find various functions whih in some cases took months to test and devleop

Each tuner kept his / her methods confidential and there was no method to read other tuner's maps

EcuTek was the first to include a "injector scaling" function within its platform

You should realize that IT IS NOT required to adjust the injector scaling to properly tune a car you can tune it by adjusting other parameters

NOW with the Ecu Flash platform (great product) - there are additional functions which all users can compare and use and there is ability to examine maps which may have been developed with more primative softwear systems

I will tell you that I had a lot of success in tuning evos which ran very well without ever touching an injector scaling function

It is easy to use the new softwear to be a "internet critic" however - do not criticise other tuners for not adjusting a feature which they did not have access to at the time the maps were created

Technology is a wonderful thing - oh how we could laugh at the cavemen who used to read on cave walls by camp fire

RazorLab

iTrader: (8)

Do tell.

DynoFlash

iTrader: (91)

I dont need to "tell"

As anyone knows there are hundreds and hundreds of cars out there with my maps which have been running for long periods of time - without incident - on larger injectors

And might I add - going very fast in the process

dohcvtec

iTrader: (5)

Must be a closely guarded super tooner secret?