post your maps here
Jul 1, 2006, 12:21 PM
#61
Originally Posted by AMS
Do not make the low and high octane maps the same!!!
1. Recently I've had an EVO IX on my dyno with Tuner 'A' flash and I audibly heard knocking in the engine and the spark plugs and had pieces of ALuminum bedded all over the electrode tip and ceramic. This was on a EVO IX with only 1800 miles!!! poor engine... The timing was solid as a rock and never changed, yet it was detonating badly.
2. The manufacturer puts a low octane timing map for a reason!! If you run the boost too high, if your tune is too aggresive, then it start to revert to lower timing #'s.
It's there for a safety reason! It's there so if there is detonation going on it will learn and run lower timing to avoid detonation. A good analogy would be shoving your hand in a pot of boiling water, you'll get burned each time over and over again. Or you can 'learn' that the water will hurt you and avoid the boiling water!! You don't want to be running the car on the knock sensor all the time, especially a turbo car. Will it blow up the car? eventually it will hurt something.
No competent tuner will set these maps the same for a customers car driven on the street.
1. Recently I've had an EVO IX on my dyno with Tuner 'A' flash and I audibly heard knocking in the engine and the spark plugs and had pieces of ALuminum bedded all over the electrode tip and ceramic. This was on a EVO IX with only 1800 miles!!! poor engine... The timing was solid as a rock and never changed, yet it was detonating badly.
2. The manufacturer puts a low octane timing map for a reason!! If you run the boost too high, if your tune is too aggresive, then it start to revert to lower timing #'s.
It's there for a safety reason! It's there so if there is detonation going on it will learn and run lower timing to avoid detonation. A good analogy would be shoving your hand in a pot of boiling water, you'll get burned each time over and over again. Or you can 'learn' that the water will hurt you and avoid the boiling water!! You don't want to be running the car on the knock sensor all the time, especially a turbo car. Will it blow up the car? eventually it will hurt something.
No competent tuner will set these maps the same for a customers car driven on the street.
The reason I say this follows. What if I let someone drive my car because it is the only car home and I am sick or cant drive. They say oh he needs some gas since I forgot that it was empty and havent drove in a week. They decide to put 87 octane since gas is so expensive. They see a vette and say let me test this EVO see how it holds vs a vette. Race the vette and right when they gun it bam, it blows because the ecu saw the 87 oct, but had no map to retard to. Vette pulls over with his sexy lady passenger and laughs because my car blew up. Just a scenario, but who says it couldnt happen. Plus some gas stations do have less quality gas than others. I just feel that margin of safety with the low octane is a good piece of mind and definetly there for a reason. Just my opinion.
Jul 1, 2006, 01:11 PM
#62
Originally Posted by honki24
I'd love to keep this on topic. anyone w/ ecu+ know why the ecuflash program might not be READING my ecu? Do I have to do that jumper/switch thing if I just want to read it at this point? I thought it was neccessary if you wanted to write to it. If so, or even if you have good info on how it's to be done (i suck at electronics) please PM me with any info you find helpful. Tom hasn't answered my email.
I'd otherwise have a couple tunes to post up I'm sure.
I'd otherwise have a couple tunes to post up I'm sure.
Jul 1, 2006, 01:24 PM
#64
Originally Posted by chmodlf
Hey MJ,
Did I read/remember correctly that you flatten and keep your maps flat?
Did I read/remember correctly that you flatten and keep your maps flat?
The only time I would flatten any type of map is to road or dyno tune where repeatable results may be hindered by the octane number calculation (the map trim) When I'm done, I do absolutely definitely have a safe tune in the low octane maps.
Jul 1, 2006, 01:25 PM
#65
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my mailin maps where the same..... i changed the low fuel and timing to stock.... and now im going to play with the high fuel when EVOscan works alittle better
Jul 1, 2006, 05:41 PM
#66
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Originally Posted by MalibuJack
Only while tuning.. I back off the low octane map by a few degrees and add fuel afterwards before the car gets any significant driving.. My car is very tolerant of very aggressive tunes, so I need to maintain a margin of safety if anything goes wrong in daily driving...
The only time I would flatten any type of map is to road or dyno tune where repeatable results may be hindered by the octane number calculation (the map trim) When I'm done, I do absolutely definitely have a safe tune in the low octane maps.
The only time I would flatten any type of map is to road or dyno tune where repeatable results may be hindered by the octane number calculation (the map trim) When I'm done, I do absolutely definitely have a safe tune in the low octane maps.
I really can't see any worthwhile benefit to matching maps whatsoever in a street car. Especially if you're supposed to spend all your time in the high octane maps to begin with. That one time a month you might dip into the low octane could be disasterous and not worth the little gain you might see in drivability.
Jul 1, 2006, 09:08 PM
#67
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Originally Posted by AMS
Do not make the low and high octane maps the same!!!
1. Recently I've had an EVO IX on my dyno with Tuner 'A' flash and I audibly heard knocking in the engine and the spark plugs and had pieces of ALuminum bedded all over the electrode tip and ceramic. This was on a EVO IX with only 1800 miles!!! poor engine... The timing was solid as a rock and never changed, yet it was detonating badly.
2. The manufacturer puts a low octane timing map for a reason!! If you run the boost too high, if your tune is too aggresive, then it start to revert to lower timing #'s.
It's there for a safety reason! It's there so if there is detonation going on it will learn and run lower timing to avoid detonation. A good analogy would be shoving your hand in a pot of boiling water, you'll get burned each time over and over again. Or you can 'learn' that the water will hurt you and avoid the boiling water!! You don't want to be running the car on the knock sensor all the time, especially a turbo car. Will it blow up the car? eventually it will hurt something.
No competent tuner will set these maps the same for a customers car driven on the street.
1. Recently I've had an EVO IX on my dyno with Tuner 'A' flash and I audibly heard knocking in the engine and the spark plugs and had pieces of ALuminum bedded all over the electrode tip and ceramic. This was on a EVO IX with only 1800 miles!!! poor engine... The timing was solid as a rock and never changed, yet it was detonating badly.
2. The manufacturer puts a low octane timing map for a reason!! If you run the boost too high, if your tune is too aggresive, then it start to revert to lower timing #'s.
It's there for a safety reason! It's there so if there is detonation going on it will learn and run lower timing to avoid detonation. A good analogy would be shoving your hand in a pot of boiling water, you'll get burned each time over and over again. Or you can 'learn' that the water will hurt you and avoid the boiling water!! You don't want to be running the car on the knock sensor all the time, especially a turbo car. Will it blow up the car? eventually it will hurt something.
No competent tuner will set these maps the same for a customers car driven on the street.
A Evo IX is a very poor example as its ecu works entirely differently than a Evo 8
The IX needs a totally different tuning method and you use the 6 (SIX) ignition maps in a different manner than in a 8
Knowing the inter relationship between those 6 maps and when they are active is critical
I personally use a toatlly different approach to the IX timing maps than on the 8
However, Martins assertion is not accurate about why the ecu was not pulling timing
In many cases there can be NO detonation present and still the ecu pulls timing based upon sounds or harmonics present in the engine which trigger retardation of timing
In other cases actual detonataion can fail to trigger a knock event in the ecu
I have found these conditions to be very infrequent
The way I tune my cars, the anaology I like to use is that we never stick our hands in the "hot water" at all we leave that for the other tuners.
To sumarize - Evo IX and Evo 8 ecus are totalky different and require different approaches to tuning
Just for the record, I was the first to start offering a reflash for the Evo IX and I have tuned several hundred of them and not one has had any engine failure problems
Jul 1, 2006, 11:48 PM
#68
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... as usual these things are spinning out of hand and it's late, so please forgive the occasional sarcasm ... but, since I was indirectly referenced ...
Originally Posted by dynoflash
IN MANY cases it is prudent to maintain the low and high octane maps similar becuase wide vartiations can trigger other tuning issues that can result in problems which some users have reported (such as the guy who was having timing pulled even though he disconnected the knock sensor)
If you are going to reference something, then at least get it right .. FYI, the knock sensor was disconnected on the dyno to see if it was the source of the pulled timing. It wasn't.
Originally Posted by dynoflash
UNLESS your tuner is a total buffon or unless your engine is ready to blow up immediately - A PROPERLY TUNED EVO WILL NEVER run in the low octane map AT ALL
Originally Posted by dynoflash
99.9999 % of evos I tune run all the time in the high octane map
- 99.9999 % insinuates that only 1/1,000,000 Evos that you have tuned have run in the low octane map.
- This is an alleged statement of fact with no evidence. Or do you actually keep logs of all dynoflashed Evos during all times of operation?
- Admittedly, this would be difficult to prove, since Evos that were dynoflashed with identical low and high octane maps would _have_to_ run using a map that looks like the high octane map, wouldn't they? Clever.
Originally Posted by dynoflash
As for what numbers are placed in areas of the timing map that the car never runs in - such as full load at 1,000 - 2,000 rpms which is completely impossible for the car to ever run it it is really irrelevant what nunbers are placed there as the car will never run in those load zones
Originally Posted by dynoflash
I have tuned thousands of evos and yet to date there are NO reported engine failures of any kind attributed to my tuning methods - NONE. This depsite the fact that many of my customers have gone over 100,000 miles of more.
Originally Posted by dynoflash
Evo IX is a very poor example as its ecu works entirely differently than a Evo 8
Folks, it's REVOLUTIONARY!!
Originally Posted by dynoflash
The IX needs a totally different tuning method and you use the 6 (SIX) ignition maps in a different manner than in a 8
Originally Posted by dynoflash
However, Martins assertion is not accurate about why the ecu was not pulling timing
l8r)
Jul 2, 2006, 06:46 AM
#69
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Trust me, there is a lot of things going on inside the stock ecu which you and your tuner do not fully comprehened
This is why your car pulls timing for no apparent reason
(the reason is apparent to me as I have been doing this for 3 years and having been trained by some of the world's foremost stcok ecu experts)
While my maps may not meet your standards, they have in fact been specifically set up to avcod the pit falls that you have been experiencing - and other problems which pop up when you start trying to make a lot of of power on a stock ecu with maf sensor
There are reasons for every single thing that is done in my maps
In any event, this smear campaign is growing old and I have better things to do this weekend than argue on the internet
Best regards
... as usual these things are spinning out of hand and it's late, so please forgive the occasional sarcasm ... but, since I was indirectly referenced ...
Right, because I make a habit out of driving around with my knock sensor disconnected.
If you are going to reference something, then at least get it right .. FYI, the knock sensor was disconnected on the dyno to see if it was the source of the pulled timing. It wasn't.
simply not true. A properly tuned Evo will run in the low octane maps when it has low octane fuel in the tank or runs into adverse envitonmental situations (ex. cold day+going uphill+high gear->overboost) where recorded knock activity necessitates safety precautions. That's why the high and low octane maps exist.
A questionable statement on several fronts:
- 99.9999 % insinuates that only 1/1,000,000 Evos that you have tuned have run in the low octane map.
- This is an alleged statement of fact with no evidence. Or do you actually keep logs of all dynoflashed Evos during all times of operation?
- Admittedly, this would be difficult to prove, since Evos that were dynoflashed with identical low and high octane maps would _have_to_ run using a map that looks like the high octane map, wouldn't they? Clever.
Ah, but what about high load areas in the 2500-3000 rpm range? Those are certainly attainable on a stock turbo. And what about the large plateau of 8's? What is the theory behind that?
More 'facts' without any real evidence. Thousands of Evos? As in thousands of actual, individual Mitsubishi Evolution automobiles? Proof please. 'Many' customers have gone over 100,000 miles. Please define 'many' - and I don't suppose those 'many' would include Subaru customers, would they? I'd also surmise that if we changed the word 'attributed' to 'alleged', we'd come up with a different number.
Apparently it no longer uses sensory inputs from the vehicle to control the air/ fuel mixture. Folks, it's REVOLUTIONARY!!
The 8 does not have 6 (six) ignition maps.
And you know this because, somehow, you were logging the dyno runs from several thousand miles away, correct?
l8r)
This is why your car pulls timing for no apparent reason
(the reason is apparent to me as I have been doing this for 3 years and having been trained by some of the world's foremost stcok ecu experts)
While my maps may not meet your standards, they have in fact been specifically set up to avcod the pit falls that you have been experiencing - and other problems which pop up when you start trying to make a lot of of power on a stock ecu with maf sensor
There are reasons for every single thing that is done in my maps
In any event, this smear campaign is growing old and I have better things to do this weekend than argue on the internet
Best regards
Originally Posted by Ludikraut
... as usual these things are spinning out of hand and it's late, so please forgive the occasional sarcasm ... but, since I was indirectly referenced ...Right, because I make a habit out of driving around with my knock sensor disconnected.
If you are going to reference something, then at least get it right .. FYI, the knock sensor was disconnected on the dyno to see if it was the source of the pulled timing. It wasn't.
simply not true. A properly tuned Evo will run in the low octane maps when it has low octane fuel in the tank or runs into adverse envitonmental situations (ex. cold day+going uphill+high gear->overboost) where recorded knock activity necessitates safety precautions. That's why the high and low octane maps exist.
A questionable statement on several fronts:
- 99.9999 % insinuates that only 1/1,000,000 Evos that you have tuned have run in the low octane map.
- This is an alleged statement of fact with no evidence. Or do you actually keep logs of all dynoflashed Evos during all times of operation?
- Admittedly, this would be difficult to prove, since Evos that were dynoflashed with identical low and high octane maps would _have_to_ run using a map that looks like the high octane map, wouldn't they? Clever.
Ah, but what about high load areas in the 2500-3000 rpm range? Those are certainly attainable on a stock turbo. And what about the large plateau of 8's? What is the theory behind that?
More 'facts' without any real evidence. Thousands of Evos? As in thousands of actual, individual Mitsubishi Evolution automobiles? Proof please. 'Many' customers have gone over 100,000 miles. Please define 'many' - and I don't suppose those 'many' would include Subaru customers, would they? I'd also surmise that if we changed the word 'attributed' to 'alleged', we'd come up with a different number.
Apparently it no longer uses sensory inputs from the vehicle to control the air/ fuel mixture.
Folks, it's REVOLUTIONARY!!The 8 does not have 6 (six) ignition maps.
And you know this because, somehow, you were logging the dyno runs from several thousand miles away, correct?
l8r)
Last edited by DynoFlash; Jul 2, 2006 at 06:49 AM.
Jul 2, 2006, 07:38 AM
#70
Ok so I checked my dynoeflashed image and the high and low octane and high and low ignition maps are very similar. Now can I put back in my low octane/ignition maps from my stock rom image. I just want the car to be safe for right now I dont want to have to worry that if I get a little bad gas Im gonna grenade this pig.
Jul 2, 2006, 07:59 AM
#71
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Yes you can do that or it seems to me that you could take a look at the percentages that the low octane map differs from the high octane and make similar percentage adjustments.
Jul 2, 2006, 08:44 AM
#72
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What he said^. You don't need to run the stock low octane map because they're designed to be VERY conservative. A slight decrease from the high octane maps in it's place will give you a good safety margin and give you just enough noticeble power loss in the event of knock to indicate something may be wrong. That's just my 2 cent.
Jul 2, 2006, 08:57 AM
#73
If you want to see what changes were made to a map, take your original stock map, and the modified map, use a tool like WinDiff, and make a note of the locations that were altered.. If there are any changes to the configuration other than the maps, they would show up there..
Its important that you use the exact same map that the tune was derived from (at least the same ECU identifier and Rom version..)
This will put to an end any questions on what changes are made to what maps...
Its important that you use the exact same map that the tune was derived from (at least the same ECU identifier and Rom version..)
This will put to an end any questions on what changes are made to what maps...
Jul 2, 2006, 09:19 AM
#75
Can someone just post a evo 9 dynoflash map from a customer so we can see if the difference from the EVO 8 tune. I would love to see this different method of approach on the evo 9. I just dont understand how just because the evo 9 has more low octane maps they use them differently, since they are titled the same. The only way I can think is that evo 9 ecu selects 1 of the low octane maps based on how much knock it encounters, but the evo 8 just detects knock and goes right to the only low octane map it has.