post your maps here
Jul 2, 2006, 03:08 PM
#91
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I removed the map posted by Shiv. We ask that all members NOT post vendor tuned maps. Please see the sticky above. Also, if this thread turns into a gathering place for a swap meet it will be removed.
Finally, this is the most informative forum on this website and it will not be closed because of vendor gamesmanship. The better option is to lobby the owner to keep the vendors out if necessary; which I will do. Thanks.
Speedlimit..
Finally, this is the most informative forum on this website and it will not be closed because of vendor gamesmanship. The better option is to lobby the owner to keep the vendors out if necessary; which I will do. Thanks.
Speedlimit..
Jul 3, 2006, 03:53 AM
#92
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
I'll do my best. Calculated load is largely a function of RPM and MAF freq. I'd be lying if I said that I knew what the exact formula is. However, such knowledge isn't really necessary. And if you really wanted to, you could figure it out without too much work. Mitsu does a nice job of correlating MAF and RPM into calculated manifold pressure (calc. load, ie.. X axis on the fuel/spark adv tables). A load cell of "260" is approx. 2.6 bar of absolute pressure or 1.6bar of boost. But I'm probably not revealing anything new here 
I think you are revealing new information here or else it would have been mentioned previously...thanks
If I recall correctly, the load cells for the Evo 9 read up about 300 (or higher), would that algorithm equate to ~2.0 bar of boost (or higher)?
Jul 3, 2006, 06:38 AM
#93
Originally Posted by modvp
I think you are revealing new information here or else it would have been mentioned previously...thanks If I recall correctly, the load cells for the Evo 9 read up about 300 (or higher), would that algorithm equate to ~2.0 bar of boost (or higher)?
If I recall correctly, the load cells for the Evo 9 read up about 300 (or higher), would that algorithm equate to ~2.0 bar of boost (or higher)?Unfortunately, the values (0-260) or (0-300) are estimated, and therefore altering components on the car that can change the MAF frequency will bias the value, there are other tables that can bring those values back in check, but it takes time to figure out what all of them do and how they affect things..
With all that said, those values are roughly bar values, 0-100 being engine under vacuum (no boost) 100-300 being levels of boost (roughly equating to BAR but remember 0 is a vacuum, 1 bar is sea level... Anything else above that is boost)
You notice that it gets more "error" as you make changes to the car, Generally things that alter the reading of the MAF without an actual increase in airflow would be the most obvious thing that can throw the calculations off..
The good news is, if you know your boost level, and RPM, you can guess roughly what cell to alter, but the truth is there might be enough error that it could be the cell before, or cell after that would also need to be altered.. HOWEVER, once you get familiar with your ECU and Mods, you begin to "understand" where the error is and you then will become more proficient and faster at finding the right cells.
I find that I occasionally need to remind people that tuning is not rocket science, its not very difficult but it does take the right tools, and some common sense.. Its a bit of an art, but its also quantifiable and therefore you can learn by trial and error. The more tools you have (both in understanding the concepts and of course, intstruments to do the work) the easier it will be to do it right, and not break anything..
Jul 3, 2006, 06:44 AM
#94
This really becomes more obvious if you are using a Piggyback in addition to the ECUFlash.. If you use a speed density conversion, it will take some time to get all the values output from the MAFTPro (or MapECU) to mirror the values of the MAF sensor.. That would clearly throw off the ECU..
Also, I wanted to add one thing.. Since the X Axis for the fuel and timing tables represent a value of load, there are other things that can affect that value so using boost and RPM as a blind determining factor won't get you in all the places you need to be, so understand that sometimes it may be unavoidable and you end up hunting for the right cell.. Again, the more you do it, the more you learn, and the easier it gets.
Also, I wanted to add one thing.. Since the X Axis for the fuel and timing tables represent a value of load, there are other things that can affect that value so using boost and RPM as a blind determining factor won't get you in all the places you need to be, so understand that sometimes it may be unavoidable and you end up hunting for the right cell.. Again, the more you do it, the more you learn, and the easier it gets.
Jul 3, 2006, 07:15 AM
#95
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Originally Posted by MalibuJack
The good news is, if you know your boost level, and RPM, you can guess roughly what cell to alter, but the truth is there might be enough error that it could be the cell before, or cell after that would also need to be altered.. HOWEVER, once you get familiar with your ECU and Mods, you begin to "understand" where the error is and you then will become more proficient and faster at finding the right cells.
I find that I occasionally need to remind people that tuning is not rocket science, its not very difficult but it does take the right tools, and some common sense.. Its a bit of an art, but its also quantifiable and therefore you can learn by trial and error. The more tools you have (both in understanding the concepts and of course, intstruments to do the work) the easier it will be to do it right, and not break anything..
I find that I occasionally need to remind people that tuning is not rocket science, its not very difficult but it does take the right tools, and some common sense.. Its a bit of an art, but its also quantifiable and therefore you can learn by trial and error. The more tools you have (both in understanding the concepts and of course, intstruments to do the work) the easier it will be to do it right, and not break anything..
Using the EVOScan program that MAD4EVO created and the EVOScan log reader that Second Chance created are the only tools we need. Obviously a WB needed too but I hope anyone who is going to attempt tuning would already have that tool.
After you do a pull open the log file with Second Chances' reader program. Then look at your RPM and timing values on the log and coorliate them to your Fuel and Timing maps in ECU flash.
In the log above I'm at 19* @ 7k RPM; on my timing & A/F maps in ECU flash that coorolates to this section highlighted below:
I know those pics are a little hard to see but basically thats all there is to it.
Using that method I was able to pin-point my load for virtually every RPM and tune my map to absolutly ZERO knock in the 90*+ heat and 100% humidity so I know it works.
This is so simple that ANYONE with a laptop can do it. And the best part is we aren't even seeing boost & A/F yet, once we're able to log those parimeters look out.
This is really an exciting time to be an EVO owner!!
Jul 3, 2006, 07:19 AM
#96
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Originally Posted by MalibuJack
Also, I wanted to add one thing.. Since the X Axis for the fuel and timing tables represent a value of load, there are other things that can affect that value so using boost and RPM as a blind determining factor won't get you in all the places you need to be, so understand that sometimes it may be unavoidable and you end up hunting for the right cell.. Again, the more you do it, the more you learn, and the easier it gets.
Unfortunately my strong suit is more towards .net apps and web app dev rather than the reverse engineering side of the equasion so I will not be of too much help here.
Until then I guess we will have to use some trial and error to get to the correct cells. The method posted above ^^^ makes sense.
Last edited by chmodlf; Jul 3, 2006 at 07:24 AM.
Jul 3, 2006, 07:34 AM
#98
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Originally Posted by MalibuJack
You know OBD-II output does have a calculated load value... We just have to calibrate the number with the number in ECUFlash and you'll have an exact hit..
Jul 3, 2006, 07:38 AM
#99
Originally Posted by AlwaysinBoost
Currently we have the right tools available to us to pin-point EXACTLY what load cells are cars are functioning in. Its so simple that anyone can figure it out, in fact I completely overlooked it until MAD_VIII pointed it out to me.
Using the EVOScan program that MAD4EVO created and the EVOScan log reader that Second Chance created are the only tools we need. Obviously a WB needed too but I hope anyone who is going to attempt tuning would already have that tool.
After you do a pull open the log file with Second Chances' reader program. Then look at your RPM and timing values on the log and coorliate them to your Fuel and Timing maps in ECU flash.
In the log above I'm at 19* @ 7k RPM; on my timing & A/F maps in ECU flash that coorolates to this section highlighted below:
I know those pics are a little hard to see but basically thats all there is to it.
Using that method I was able to pin-point my load for virtually every RPM and tune my map to absolutly ZERO knock in the 90*+ heat and 100% humidity so I know it works.
This is so simple that ANYONE with a laptop can do it. And the best part is we aren't even seeing boost & A/F yet, once we're able to log those parimeters look out.
This is really an exciting time to be an EVO owner!!
Using the EVOScan program that MAD4EVO created and the EVOScan log reader that Second Chance created are the only tools we need. Obviously a WB needed too but I hope anyone who is going to attempt tuning would already have that tool.
After you do a pull open the log file with Second Chances' reader program. Then look at your RPM and timing values on the log and coorliate them to your Fuel and Timing maps in ECU flash.
In the log above I'm at 19* @ 7k RPM; on my timing & A/F maps in ECU flash that coorolates to this section highlighted below:
I know those pics are a little hard to see but basically thats all there is to it.
Using that method I was able to pin-point my load for virtually every RPM and tune my map to absolutly ZERO knock in the 90*+ heat and 100% humidity so I know it works.
This is so simple that ANYONE with a laptop can do it. And the best part is we aren't even seeing boost & A/F yet, once we're able to log those parimeters look out.
This is really an exciting time to be an EVO owner!!
You have a nice smooth transition where every timing value in most of the cells is generally unique (in the areas that need tuning) Your method works well until you have several cells adjacent to eachother with the same timing value, Obviously then you can look at a trend to find the next logical place..
But I wanted to point out that the ECU does output a calculated load value, I see it in my OBD-II logger (my older Elmscan one) and it should roughly reflect the values in the X Axis.. Not sure if its output in the logger tool yet..
Jul 3, 2006, 07:52 AM
#100
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Originally Posted by MalibuJack
You have a nice smooth transition where every timing value in most of the cells is generally unique (in the areas that need tuning) Your method works well until you have several cells adjacent to eachother with the same timing value, Obviously then you can look at a trend to find the next logical place..
But I wanted to point out that the ECU does output a calculated load value, I see it in my OBD-II logger (my older Elmscan one) and it should roughly reflect the values in the X Axis.. Not sure if its output in the logger tool yet..
But I wanted to point out that the ECU does output a calculated load value, I see it in my OBD-II logger (my older Elmscan one) and it should roughly reflect the values in the X Axis.. Not sure if its output in the logger tool yet..
The reason why my map is scaled like that isn't be accident, I made dozens of logs on the street and tuned each and every section from 3k RPM and up until there was ZERO knock. The ECU just doesn't like to see a timing value held in a specific RPM range for too long. For example look at how the stock maps values drop as load increases. I'm sure I'm not saying anything you don't already know.
I tried running other "tooners" base maps which should have been made for the mods I have and was getting a LOT of knock in the areas where timing was just flat. So I went back to the map I used on the dyno and tweaked it from there. The result is what you see above.
Those are just the high octain maps though, the low octain are much more conservative. Like other have mentioned before though if your car is tuned properly your ECU will never switch to the lower octain maps. I've found this to be very accurate.
Jul 3, 2006, 07:56 AM
#101
Agreed..
In theory about the load, as long as the ECU outputs something, it can be used as the benchmark to calibrate to, and as long as you can match it with your map, you can actually trace your map cells.. Hopefully this will be figured out and implemented in the future tools that become available. Unfortunately I didn't spend alot of time trying to log data with the older OBD-II Loggers, they were just too slow to get useful information so I didn't try to spend more time on it to determine just how accurate that load value is.. BUT it does exist, and it should be used for reference since it is the ECU's determination its load..
In theory about the load, as long as the ECU outputs something, it can be used as the benchmark to calibrate to, and as long as you can match it with your map, you can actually trace your map cells.. Hopefully this will be figured out and implemented in the future tools that become available. Unfortunately I didn't spend alot of time trying to log data with the older OBD-II Loggers, they were just too slow to get useful information so I didn't try to spend more time on it to determine just how accurate that load value is.. BUT it does exist, and it should be used for reference since it is the ECU's determination its load..
Last edited by MalibuJack; Jul 3, 2006 at 07:58 AM.
Jul 3, 2006, 08:43 AM
#102
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Originally Posted by MalibuJack
Its not really new information, but the info has been buried in a few threads and unless you've really read them all, its easy to overlook it..
Unfortunately, the values (0-260) or (0-300) are estimated, and therefore altering components on the car that can change the MAF frequency will bias the value, there are other tables that can bring those values back in check, but it takes time to figure out what all of them do and how they affect things..
With all that said, those values are roughly bar values, 0-100 being engine under vacuum (no boost) 100-300 being levels of boost (roughly equating to BAR but remember 0 is a vacuum, 1 bar is sea level... Anything else above that is boost)
...
The good news is, if you know your boost level, and RPM, you can guess roughly what cell to alter, but the truth is there might be enough error that it could be the cell before, or cell after that would also need to be altered.. HOWEVER, once you get familiar with your ECU and Mods, you begin to "understand" where the error is and you then will become more proficient and faster at finding the right cells..
Unfortunately, the values (0-260) or (0-300) are estimated, and therefore altering components on the car that can change the MAF frequency will bias the value, there are other tables that can bring those values back in check, but it takes time to figure out what all of them do and how they affect things..
With all that said, those values are roughly bar values, 0-100 being engine under vacuum (no boost) 100-300 being levels of boost (roughly equating to BAR but remember 0 is a vacuum, 1 bar is sea level... Anything else above that is boost)
...
The good news is, if you know your boost level, and RPM, you can guess roughly what cell to alter, but the truth is there might be enough error that it could be the cell before, or cell after that would also need to be altered.. HOWEVER, once you get familiar with your ECU and Mods, you begin to "understand" where the error is and you then will become more proficient and faster at finding the right cells..
I usually hit the 280 Load column and have occasionally hit the 300 Load column running 20 psi of boost, when theoretically I should have probably landed in the 240 column. I'm guessing that the combination of bigger turbo, bigger cams, ported head, 65mm throttle body, and AMS VSR intake are flowing a lot more air than a stock(ish) setup, eh?
l8r)
Jul 3, 2006, 08:48 AM
#103
Originally Posted by Ludikraut
The load values may roughly correspond to Bar on a stock car, but consider my Evo:
I usually hit the 280 Load column and have occasionally hit the 300 Load column running 20 psi of boost, when theoretically I should have probably landed in the 240 column. I'm guessing that the combination of bigger turbo, bigger cams, ported head, 65mm throttle body, and AMS VSR intake are flowing a lot more air than a stock(ish) setup, eh?
l8r)
I usually hit the 280 Load column and have occasionally hit the 300 Load column running 20 psi of boost, when theoretically I should have probably landed in the 240 column. I'm guessing that the combination of bigger turbo, bigger cams, ported head, 65mm throttle body, and AMS VSR intake are flowing a lot more air than a stock(ish) setup, eh?
l8r)
I am honestly pretty fortunate that I can use my calibration feature on the blowthrough to put things back where their supposed to though.
Jul 3, 2006, 10:14 AM
#104
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Originally Posted by Speedlimit
I removed the map posted by Shiv. We ask that all members NOT post vendor tuned maps. Please see the sticky above. Also, if this thread turns into a gathering place for a swap meet it will be removed.
Finally, this is the most informative forum on this website and it will not be closed because of vendor gamesmanship. The better option is to lobby the owner to keep the vendors out if necessary; which I will do. Thanks.
Speedlimit..
Finally, this is the most informative forum on this website and it will not be closed because of vendor gamesmanship. The better option is to lobby the owner to keep the vendors out if necessary; which I will do. Thanks.
Speedlimit..
Then tell Al to stay out of the EcuFlash threads period. Besides, he is taking free software and selling maps based on free software that is designed for personal use. Al is trolling the EcuFlash forums so he can guarantee his sales which is evident now he offers EcuFlash maps for $$$. I think Vendors should only be aloud to post if they are actually teaching people how to tune, not push their products. Some vendors do have a cache of knowledge about tuning that could help us alot, if it is done in a responsible way when posting.
Last edited by Speedlimit; Jul 4, 2006 at 05:18 AM.