First datalogs, please comment
Jul 7, 2006, 08:08 AM
#16
Originally Posted by Girlie
Could it be the hi-flo cat causing the knock on top end?
Jul 7, 2006, 05:09 PM
#18
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I did a log today, I got 14 counts of Knock once, I forget what rpm. I am at work and the Info is on my laptop. Then I did another run and the Knock varied from RPM from 2 to 12 I think. What do I need to change to make it Zero? For each RPM I need to change the fuel and timing in that range?
Jul 7, 2006, 05:57 PM
#19
Did you guys ever consider that the number that you are recording is not knock at all? Since the car is not pulling timing, it is possible that what you are logging is not knock.
The knock sensor is nothing but a ruggerized microphone. It simply hears sound and sends it to the ECU and the ECU makes sense of it and you read it through the Ecuflash software. When you mod a car with TBE, intake, etc...you will make the car louder, ie, more noise. It is possible for the knock sensor to hear the additional noise as knock and read it as such, but in reality it is just noise.
The best way to tell if your car is knocking or not is the old fashioned way, ie, listen to it. You need a knock detection set with a headphone and you can listen to it.
The thread below has good info on knock sensors.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/f...t=knock+sensor
Read what Klaus has to say. He is the chief engineer for innovate. I am basically restating what he said.
here is how you can design a detection headset to help you listen to detonation
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/article.html?&A=0353
The knock sensor is nothing but a ruggerized microphone. It simply hears sound and sends it to the ECU and the ECU makes sense of it and you read it through the Ecuflash software. When you mod a car with TBE, intake, etc...you will make the car louder, ie, more noise. It is possible for the knock sensor to hear the additional noise as knock and read it as such, but in reality it is just noise.
The best way to tell if your car is knocking or not is the old fashioned way, ie, listen to it. You need a knock detection set with a headphone and you can listen to it.
The thread below has good info on knock sensors.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/f...t=knock+sensor
Read what Klaus has to say. He is the chief engineer for innovate. I am basically restating what he said.
here is how you can design a detection headset to help you listen to detonation
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/article.html?&A=0353
Jul 7, 2006, 06:02 PM
#20
you are running lean up top. that's probably why it's knocking bad and your timing only reach 15 degree. you want to be at least 17 or 18 degree. You can have a FLat AFR but that doesn't mean you timing is advancing properly. i would riching it out to about .94-.96 o2 voltage from 5500rpm and up.
Last edited by vboy425; Jul 8, 2006 at 01:45 AM.
Jul 7, 2006, 06:47 PM
#21
Originally Posted by nj1266
Did you guys ever consider that the number that you are recording is not knock at all? Since the car is not pulling timing, it is possible that what you are logging is not knock.
The knock sensor is nothing but a ruggerized microphone. It simply hears sound and sends it to the ECU and the ECU makes sense of it and you read it through the Ecuflash software. When you mod a car with TBE, intake, etc...you will make the car louder, ie, more noise. It is possible for the knock sensor to hear the additional noise as knock and read it as such, but in reality it is just noise.
The best way to tell if your car is knocking or not is the old fashioned way, ie, listen to it. You need a knock detection set with a headphone and you can listen to it.
The thread below has good info on knock sensors.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/f...t=knock+sensor
Read what Klaus has to say. He is the chief engineer for innovate. I am basically restating what he said.
here is how you can design a detection headset to help you listen to detonation
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/article.html?&A=0353
The knock sensor is nothing but a ruggerized microphone. It simply hears sound and sends it to the ECU and the ECU makes sense of it and you read it through the Ecuflash software. When you mod a car with TBE, intake, etc...you will make the car louder, ie, more noise. It is possible for the knock sensor to hear the additional noise as knock and read it as such, but in reality it is just noise.
The best way to tell if your car is knocking or not is the old fashioned way, ie, listen to it. You need a knock detection set with a headphone and you can listen to it.
The thread below has good info on knock sensors.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/f...t=knock+sensor
Read what Klaus has to say. He is the chief engineer for innovate. I am basically restating what he said.
here is how you can design a detection headset to help you listen to detonation
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/article.html?&A=0353
Wouldnt that normally result in like 1 or 2 knock not 10 or 15.
Jul 7, 2006, 06:49 PM
#22
found this posted somewhere
KNOCK SUM
Knock can be caused by many different things. Bad gas for one, too low of a/f ratio, too high of boost on pump gas (even with say an O2 reading of .96v, very rich, you can get knock from too hot of charge air temps), this could be from intercooler heat soak, too high of boost etc. For the most part you can turn your boost up until you show knock then back it down a little bit. This is where you will get the best timing advance and most power.
NOTE, It has been found that if you give rapid throttle input (even just "goosing" the throttle) you may see a rise in knock sum then have it bleed down slowely. This also includes the TMO Stage III stutterbox mod. If you use the stutterbox to launch, you can cause a false knock signal to retard timing. The key to still using it seems to be slow throttle input. If you simply push the clutch in and step on it the engine revvs and you get a knock sum of ~20 or so. It slowly falls away if you stay there long enough. If you SLOWLY bring up the revvs to the stutter rpm then floor it there is no audible knock and no knock sum.
NOTE, a knock sum of 43 is bad, as in not good. But IMO that alone does not mean you are melting your pistons as we speak. Every car I've logged, mine included, with the exception of one has been knocking up to 43 at high rpms in high gears. Almost everytime it's been a case of too high of boost setting. Turning down the boost resulted in less knock and the car actually running better. I'm not saying go out and turn it up until you get knock but if you see a real high sum or even 43, don't have a heart attack and panic, just turn the boost down until you figure out why the knock is there.
This absolutely kills power but saves your engine. If timing has been retarded to maximum value, but knock is still present, the ECU will use the boost control solenoid to try and lower boost pressure. This may be indicated by the common "LED mod.".
You can find more here http://www.vfaq.com/TMO/Tuning-Tips.htm
KNOCK SUM
Knock can be caused by many different things. Bad gas for one, too low of a/f ratio, too high of boost on pump gas (even with say an O2 reading of .96v, very rich, you can get knock from too hot of charge air temps), this could be from intercooler heat soak, too high of boost etc. For the most part you can turn your boost up until you show knock then back it down a little bit. This is where you will get the best timing advance and most power.
NOTE, It has been found that if you give rapid throttle input (even just "goosing" the throttle) you may see a rise in knock sum then have it bleed down slowely. This also includes the TMO Stage III stutterbox mod. If you use the stutterbox to launch, you can cause a false knock signal to retard timing. The key to still using it seems to be slow throttle input. If you simply push the clutch in and step on it the engine revvs and you get a knock sum of ~20 or so. It slowly falls away if you stay there long enough. If you SLOWLY bring up the revvs to the stutter rpm then floor it there is no audible knock and no knock sum.
NOTE, a knock sum of 43 is bad, as in not good. But IMO that alone does not mean you are melting your pistons as we speak. Every car I've logged, mine included, with the exception of one has been knocking up to 43 at high rpms in high gears. Almost everytime it's been a case of too high of boost setting. Turning down the boost resulted in less knock and the car actually running better. I'm not saying go out and turn it up until you get knock but if you see a real high sum or even 43, don't have a heart attack and panic, just turn the boost down until you figure out why the knock is there.
This absolutely kills power but saves your engine. If timing has been retarded to maximum value, but knock is still present, the ECU will use the boost control solenoid to try and lower boost pressure. This may be indicated by the common "LED mod.".
You can find more here http://www.vfaq.com/TMO/Tuning-Tips.htm
Last edited by mchuang; Jul 7, 2006 at 06:51 PM.
Jul 7, 2006, 08:54 PM
#23
When you have real knock, your timing will get pulled 4-5 degrees in the instance where the knock happened. I have logged such an instance. check this AFR log out. Notice that dip in the AFR, That is knock. How do I know? I happened to be logging timing at the same time with my pocketlogger. The pocket logger log overlapes with the AFR dip.
Now here is the log from the pocketlogger. Notice how it pulls timing by 4 degrees at the same rpm as the AFR dips.
RPM, Timing, Airflow, O2
2707.0, 20.0, 7.02, 0.9
2820.0, 17.0, 8.39, 0.9
2945.0, 14.0, 9.87, 0.92
3125.0, 9.0, 12.03, 0.92
3301.0, 7.0, 15.46, 0.94
3527.0, 4.0, 19.68, 0.94
3777.0, 1.0, 22.14, 0.94
4043.0, 3.0, 22.56, 0.94
4277.0, 5.0, 23.36, 0.94
4523.0, 5.0, 24.17, 0.94
4773.0, 4.0, 26.54, 0.94
4992.0, 5.0, 27.73, 0.94
5207.0, 7.0, 28.68, 0.96
5438.0, 3.0, 29.71, 0.96
5645.0, 2.0, 31.07, 0.96
5809.0, 3.0, 31.5, 0.96
6000.0, 6.0, 32.02, 0.96
6180.0, 7.0, 32.79, 0.96
6410.0, 9.0, 32.74, 0.96
6566.0, 10.0 32.91, 0.96
6758.0, 14.0 32.35, 0.96
6926.0, 16.0, 31.98, 0.96
7090.0, 18.0, 31.7, 0.96
7230.0, 18.0, 31.67, 0.96
Now here is the log from the pocketlogger. Notice how it pulls timing by 4 degrees at the same rpm as the AFR dips.
RPM, Timing, Airflow, O2
2707.0, 20.0, 7.02, 0.9
2820.0, 17.0, 8.39, 0.9
2945.0, 14.0, 9.87, 0.92
3125.0, 9.0, 12.03, 0.92
3301.0, 7.0, 15.46, 0.94
3527.0, 4.0, 19.68, 0.94
3777.0, 1.0, 22.14, 0.94
4043.0, 3.0, 22.56, 0.94
4277.0, 5.0, 23.36, 0.94
4523.0, 5.0, 24.17, 0.94
4773.0, 4.0, 26.54, 0.94
4992.0, 5.0, 27.73, 0.94
5207.0, 7.0, 28.68, 0.96
5438.0, 3.0, 29.71, 0.96
5645.0, 2.0, 31.07, 0.96
5809.0, 3.0, 31.5, 0.96
6000.0, 6.0, 32.02, 0.96
6180.0, 7.0, 32.79, 0.96
6410.0, 9.0, 32.74, 0.96
6566.0, 10.0 32.91, 0.96
6758.0, 14.0 32.35, 0.96
6926.0, 16.0, 31.98, 0.96
7090.0, 18.0, 31.7, 0.96
7230.0, 18.0, 31.67, 0.96
Last edited by nj1266; Jul 16, 2006 at 11:15 AM.
Jul 7, 2006, 10:45 PM
#24
nj1266,
EvoScan logs knock counts from the ECU, not knock sensor voltage like some crappy piggyback.
If you are seeing knock counts, you are getting timing pulled...no questions about it. In the DSM ECU, 3 counts were 1 degree of timing. I'm not sure what it is in the ECU yet, but I can guarantee that you are pulling timing.
Whether the knock is real or not, if the ECU is logging knock counts, the timing is getting pulled.
Eric
EvoScan logs knock counts from the ECU, not knock sensor voltage like some crappy piggyback.
If you are seeing knock counts, you are getting timing pulled...no questions about it. In the DSM ECU, 3 counts were 1 degree of timing. I'm not sure what it is in the ECU yet, but I can guarantee that you are pulling timing.
Whether the knock is real or not, if the ECU is logging knock counts, the timing is getting pulled.
Eric
Jul 7, 2006, 11:28 PM
#25
Originally Posted by l2r99gst
nj1266,
EvoScan logs knock counts from the ECU, not knock sensor voltage like some crappy piggyback.
If you are seeing knock counts, you are getting timing pulled...no questions about it. In the DSM ECU, 3 counts were 1 degree of timing. I'm not sure what it is in the ECU yet, but I can guarantee that you are pulling timing.
Whether the knock is real or not, if the ECU is logging knock counts, the timing is getting pulled.
Eric
EvoScan logs knock counts from the ECU, not knock sensor voltage like some crappy piggyback.
If you are seeing knock counts, you are getting timing pulled...no questions about it. In the DSM ECU, 3 counts were 1 degree of timing. I'm not sure what it is in the ECU yet, but I can guarantee that you are pulling timing.
Whether the knock is real or not, if the ECU is logging knock counts, the timing is getting pulled.
Eric
It basically commes down to the knock sensor. When you mod your car, you get more noise from the exhaust, dp, intake and that is picked up as noise and also sent to the ECU by the knock sensor.
If you bothered to read the link that I posted from the innovate forums you will understand why it is very hard to pick up knock with all the gizmos out there. I really doubt that the Ecuflash is better than the J&S safeguard, but even that unit does not work properly. The best way to log knock is to listen to it through a well designed amplifier with a headset.
Jul 7, 2006, 11:49 PM
#26
Originally Posted by nj1266
And where does the ECU gets its info from? It gets it from the knock sensor voltage. Here is the way it works. The knock sensor (a microphone basically) is attached to the back of the engine block. It listens to noise from as close to the cylinders as possible. The noise is translated inot voltage and sent to the ECU. The ECU changes it into knock counts.
It basically commes down to the knock sensor. When you mod your car, you get more noise from the exhaust, dp, intake and that is picked up as noise and also sent to the ECU by the knock sensor.
If you bothered to read the link that I posted from the innovate forums you will understand why it is very hard to pick up knock with all the gizmos out there. I really doubt that the Ecuflash is better than the J&S safeguard, but even that unit does not work properly. The best way to log knock is to listen to it through a well designed amplifier with a headset.
It basically commes down to the knock sensor. When you mod your car, you get more noise from the exhaust, dp, intake and that is picked up as noise and also sent to the ECU by the knock sensor.
If you bothered to read the link that I posted from the innovate forums you will understand why it is very hard to pick up knock with all the gizmos out there. I really doubt that the Ecuflash is better than the J&S safeguard, but even that unit does not work properly. The best way to log knock is to listen to it through a well designed amplifier with a headset.
The ECU has complex algorithms that it uses to determine the amount of knock counts that comes from the knock sensor voltage. Knock sensor voltage alone means nearly nothing.
If you read what I wrote, all I was simply saying was that when the ECU is showing knock counts, it already analyzed all of the parameters that go into doing so, and it will pull timing....the amount being directly related to the amount of knock counts.
I've been tuning Mitsu ECUs long before the Evo came to the US, so please dont' tell me to read one of your links, when I am trying to teach you something that you obviously don't understand.
Real knock and knock sensor voltage are two completely separate things. EvoScan logs real knock, as believe by the ECU, which will pull timing.
Eric
Jul 7, 2006, 11:56 PM
#27
Originally Posted by nj1266
And where does the ECU gets its info from? It gets it from the knock sensor voltage. Here is the way it works. The knock sensor (a microphone basically) is attached to the back of the engine block. It listens to noise from as close to the cylinders as possible. The noise is translated inot voltage and sent to the ECU. The ECU changes it into knock counts.
It basically commes down to the knock sensor. When you mod your car, you get more noise from the exhaust, dp, intake and that is picked up as noise and also sent to the ECU by the knock sensor.
If you bothered to read the link that I posted from the innovate forums you will understand why it is very hard to pick up knock with all the gizmos out there. I really doubt that the Ecuflash is better than the J&S safeguard, but even that unit does not work properly. The best way to log knock is to listen to it through a well designed amplifier with a headset.
It basically commes down to the knock sensor. When you mod your car, you get more noise from the exhaust, dp, intake and that is picked up as noise and also sent to the ECU by the knock sensor.
If you bothered to read the link that I posted from the innovate forums you will understand why it is very hard to pick up knock with all the gizmos out there. I really doubt that the Ecuflash is better than the J&S safeguard, but even that unit does not work properly. The best way to log knock is to listen to it through a well designed amplifier with a headset.
He is not arguing with you on what you are saying he is just saying no matter if it is phantom knock or real knock ecu is going to pull timing no matter what, and I starting to think that the only real way to get around phantom knock is by adjusting the knock sensor filter. I am pretty sure from factory it is very sensitive. Just thinking about lowering it a lil and testing it out.
Jul 7, 2006, 11:59 PM
#28
You may know more than I do, but you do not know more than Klaus Almendinger. No offense, but you really do not know more than he does. Do yourself a favor and read what he said about knock sensors and knock counts.
I have talked to the guy in person and he knows what he is talking about.
You are the one who thinks you know it all since you refuse to acknowledge someone (Klaus) who obviously knows more than you do about knock.
I have talked to the guy in person and he knows what he is talking about.
You are the one who thinks you know it all since you refuse to acknowledge someone (Klaus) who obviously knows more than you do about knock.
Originally Posted by l2r99gst
Why does everyone on the internet think they know everthing???
The ECU has complex algorithms that it uses to determine the amount of knock counts that comes from the knock sensor voltage. Knock sensor voltage alone means nearly nothing.
If you read what I wrote, all I was simply saying was that when the ECU is showing knock counts, it already analyzed all of the parameters that go into doing so, and it will pull timing....the amount being directly related to the amount of knock counts.
I've been tuning Mitsu ECUs long before the Evo came to the US, so please dont' tell me to read one of your links, when I am trying to teach you something that you obviously don't understand.
Real knock and knock sensor voltage are two completely separate things. EvoScan logs real knock, as believe by the ECU, which will pull timing.
Eric
The ECU has complex algorithms that it uses to determine the amount of knock counts that comes from the knock sensor voltage. Knock sensor voltage alone means nearly nothing.
If you read what I wrote, all I was simply saying was that when the ECU is showing knock counts, it already analyzed all of the parameters that go into doing so, and it will pull timing....the amount being directly related to the amount of knock counts.
I've been tuning Mitsu ECUs long before the Evo came to the US, so please dont' tell me to read one of your links, when I am trying to teach you something that you obviously don't understand.
Real knock and knock sensor voltage are two completely separate things. EvoScan logs real knock, as believe by the ECU, which will pull timing.
Eric
Jul 8, 2006, 12:04 AM
#29
Originally Posted by nj1266
You may know more than I do, but you do not know more than Klaus Almendinger. No offense, but you really do not know more than he does. Do yourself a favor and read what he said about knock sensors and knock counts.
I have talked to the guy in person and he knows what he is talking about.
You are the one who thinks you know it all since you refuse to acknowledge someone (Klaus) who obviously knows more than you do about knock.
I have talked to the guy in person and he knows what he is talking about.
You are the one who thinks you know it all since you refuse to acknowledge someone (Klaus) who obviously knows more than you do about knock.
If you don't want to believe what I say, fine. You don't have to.
Eric
Jul 8, 2006, 12:05 AM
#30
Originally Posted by mchuang
He is not arguing with you on what you are saying he is just saying no matter if it is phantom knock or real knock ecu is going to pull timing no matter what, and I starting to think that the only real way to get around phantom knock is by adjusting the knock sensor filter. I am pretty sure from factory it is very sensitive. Just thinking about lowering it a lil and testing it out.