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Crazy ignition timing - Evo VIII vs IX

 
Old Jul 7, 2006, 06:08 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by fromWRXtoEVO
I never said I ran 28psi without methanol. Please show me where I said that.

Carlos
I see what you are saying but you need some decent tuning. I can run 26-28psi consistently in 100 degree weather at 3100ft and 91oct and my car does not knock.

Then you said I ran my car at very high boost without meth before, So the high boost I see that you posted was 26 - 28psi. If you meant differently then my bad, but you didnt post that though.
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Old Jul 7, 2006, 06:37 PM
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No problem.. I guess that I mislead the people on this subject by including my own setup which includes methanol. Runing methanol puts you in a whole different category as far is tuning. We are all good.

Carlos
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Old Jul 8, 2006, 02:32 AM
  #33  
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Meth - I love the stuff, but I'm trying to make a daily driver pump gas setup here. I've never "got" the removing plugs stuff, I've never got useful info from it in the past, they always have looked nice and evenly coloured with no visible damage even under a magnifier when I've looked. The interpretation is quite subjective, and they always look the same. Is pulling plugs not for people who don't know their wideband AFR and have a proper means of telling if the vehicle is knocking? How can you interpret the plugs unless you shut it down hot immediately after you've done a high power run? Seems a bit of a one dimensional method of assessing a tune. I don't see it would make the power it does detonation free which is why I don't think there is a problem with basics such as fuel distribution or plugs. It is taking stock JDM timing after all. If I really wanted to know fuel distribution I'd start drilling holes in my exhaust manifold - not much space on the Evo and the WBO2 sensors don't like the high EGBP either, but I've previously run a Subaru which is far more famous for hot spots and cylinder-cylinder differences. The detonation threshold seems relatively insensitive to a range of AFRs on the Evo, it tolerates quite lean mixtures.

Last edited by jcsbanks; Jul 8, 2006 at 02:38 AM.
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Old Jul 8, 2006, 02:48 AM
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BTW, has anyone noticed that JM9693 (Evo VIII) runs 2-4 (2 mid, 4 at high RPM) degrees more timing in a lot of the 200%+ load zones at the same RPM as JM8859 (Evo XI)?
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Old Jul 8, 2006, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by jcsbanks
Example timing at 20 PSI, 11.5:1 AFR, 98 RON:

4000 8
5000 8
6000 10 (knock count of 1 from 5600-6600)
7000 16

At 26 PSI (rolling off at the top to 20), low-mid 11s AFR:
4000 1 (with a knock count of 1)
5000 6
6000 9
7000 15

I think these are tame compared to what is quoted on here on pump fuel, especially on the Evo VIIIs.
At 23psi, I'm just as conservative as your 20 psi timing, but I'm injecting 80% methanol with 93 oct.

But then again I don't race and the car is our family car, grocery getter, cobra killer, ect. Even though I'm not knocking and have loads of timing to spare, the car has to last me for years with a healthy bottom end. In my case I'm better off concentrating on the fuel map for (conservative) gains

Originally Posted by jcsbanks
BTW, has anyone noticed that JM9693 (Evo VIII) runs 2-4 (2 mid, 4 at high RPM) degrees more timing in a lot of the 200%+ load zones at the same RPM as JM8859 (Evo XI)?
Possibly less timing to spare due to cyl pressures - more torque

Last edited by C6C6CH3vo; Jul 8, 2006 at 07:21 AM.
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Old Jul 8, 2006, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by jcsbanks
I have a knocklink, det cans, and I hear it knocking in the cabin when the knocklink pings a bit red - I don't hear green or orange spikes without the det cans, but I hear all sorts of knock in most turbo Sub/Mits cars I go in that other people have tuned I had a matching spike to 15 or 16 on lift off on Evoscan just after the timing advanced immediately after lifting the throttle. I would get smaller spikes on occasion in the same areas with smaller spikes on the knocklink.

I trust my ears through det cans above all, the rest is subject to that gold standard. How many of you are doing the same?
I would say that very few people in the US Evo world use microphone-style "knock detection." I personally have no experience with it, but I would imagine it could be difficult to distinguish noise from knock. Based on my limited experience, you might be running very conservative timing because you might be confusing noise with knock.

What I would suggest is to compare your EvoScan logs (assuming you trust the knock sum output values) with your headphones and see how they compare. The ECU may be filtering out what you think is knock.

I think you'll get a better data sample once more people have had time to play with EvoScan and get some quality logs. I plan to contribute to this subject as soon as I can spend some quality time with the car and the computer.
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Old Jul 8, 2006, 09:15 AM
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Just been out for a run today, although it is a bit cooler so I'll have to reassess when it is hotter again to make sure it is safe.

The timing I was posting of 1 degree at 4000 RPM was in 3rd gear having opened the throttle at 3000 RPM. Doing the same in 4th or 5th gear I get 5 or 6 degrees there as it is well spooled up by then. It seems to dip during spool which I don't mind at all.

Anyway, I advanced the timing 1 degree above the JDM ECU's timing from 3000-7500 RPM, but still kept the steep run off (3 degrees/20% load) as load increases. Usually the ECU ended up running similar overall timing but with knock counts at least 50% of the time of between 1 and 4 at various RPM points on full load whereas before there was usually 0 and occasionally 1. I had retarded 1 degree at 6000-6500, so bear in mind I now have 2 degrees more in my base map than before, this was the area where it hit a 4 briefly. Also the knocklink was a little more sparkly at high revs, but no definite knock spikes, and I heard nothing in the cabin, although because I had no driver I was not wearing the det cans as it isn't safe to drive with them on.

I have 99-100% IDC (with Walbro, low 11s:1) at 6000-7000 RPM in a high gear. I have 26 PSI peak, 24 PSI held to 5000, 22 PSI at 6000, 20 PSI at 7000.

I'm convinced on this setup that mapping wise there is no more to come from it on this octane. If I advance the base map the ECU usually pulls it out again.

The det cans, knocklink and Evoscan logs are all in agreement.

You will be astonished how easy it is to hear knock through det cans, definitely an essential tuning tool on a turbo engine IMHO.

All I can say is watch your timing on the IX on pump.

Last edited by jcsbanks; Jul 8, 2006 at 09:18 AM.
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Old Jul 8, 2006, 09:34 AM
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Old Jul 11, 2006, 07:14 AM
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jscbanks - What kind of timing are you able to run if you lower your boost 3-4 psi?

Maybe a little more timing and less boost will be better for you???
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Old Jul 11, 2006, 08:29 AM
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I showed a 12, 20 and 26 PSI in earlier logs, it runs more timing, but the car is much slower. I also picked up torque on the dyno when I tested various boost levels over 20 PSI.

Last edited by jcsbanks; Jul 11, 2006 at 08:33 AM.
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Old Jul 11, 2006, 08:34 AM
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http://john824.fotopic.net/p31036334.html

This was high, med then low boost. Takes longer to get through the gear each time I drop the boost, although they weren't all on the same bit of road.
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Old Jul 11, 2006, 11:23 AM
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what software are you using in this pic

http://john824.fotopic.net/p31381938.html
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Old Jul 11, 2006, 12:43 PM
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Delta Dash.
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Old Jul 11, 2006, 03:49 PM
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Excessive knock at high RPM 6500 and up can likely be due to restrictive exhaust.

Do you use a stock cat and catback?
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Old Jul 14, 2006, 12:15 PM
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3" turbo elbow back exhaust - no cats.

This car is certainly not off the pace with this tuning. I compared it to an Evo VIII with 10.5T ball bearing, induction, exhaust, intercooler pipes, walbro, boost controller mapped by a renowned pro-tuner. I could pull out a considerable gap so that I had to wait for him to catch up, and when I let him in front I could pull up to and drop back from his bumper at will. He has stock cams, but I have standard sleeve bearing turbo and standard induction.
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