evo 8 ya

iTrader: (31)

These runs were done a couple days ago. The runs were done at about 7:30 in the evening 80 degrees with nearley 100% humidity. AFRs were at 10.7- 11.0 at 20.5psi in 3rd gear.


Run1

RPM_____KnockSum________TimingAdv
2343.7___0_______________17
2500____0_______________16
2626____0_______________16
2781.25__0_______________14
2968.75__2_______________12
3125____6_______________9
3312.5___5_______________6
3531.25__5_______________6
3781.25__5_______________6
4062.5___4_______________7
4343.75__4_______________7
4593.75__3_______________7
4875____3_______________7
5125____3_______________8
5343.75__2_______________8
5593.75__2_______________9
5843.75__1_______________9
6062.5___1_______________10
6312.5___1_______________14
6500_____0_______________16
6718.75__0_______________17
6906.25__0_______________18
7125_____0_______________18
7281.25__0_______________19
7468.75__0_______________20
7593.75__1_______________20


Run2

RPM_____KnockSum________TimingAdv
2343.75__0_______________17
2468.75__0_______________16
2593.75__2_______________15
2718.75__3_______________13
2875____1_______________11
3000____1_______________9
3187.5___1_______________8
3406.25__2_______________7
3656.25__4_______________7
3906.25__3_______________7
4187.5___3_______________7
4437.5___3_______________7
4687.5___2_______________7
4937.5___2_______________7
5250____1_______________8
5500____1_______________8
5718.75__0_______________10
5968.75__0_______________11
6187.5___0_______________13
6406.25__0_______________14
6593.75__1_______________16
6812.5___0_______________18
7031.25__0_______________18
7187.5___0_______________19

JohnBradley

iTrader: (30)

What does your fuel map & HOT look like between 3000 and 4000? The second run indicates that everything else being equal your tune is really close. What if any differences were there between runs? Were they both the same gear at the same time or was there alot of time between? The reason I ask is I run 11.2 in that range, 9-10 degrees of timing, 0 knock. One noticeable difference would be humidty and temp, but I am within 10* as far as temp, humidity around here right now is about 30% though.

evo 8 ya

iTrader: (31)

I can't show the fuel maps cause they're from a vender. The runs were done a few min apart. they were both done in 3rd gear with no changes. These were my first logs ever with ecuscan (more or less playing around with it). If any other parts of the log is needed, let me know and I can post em.
Also, my street tune was done in 50 degree weather.

hondafan

iTrader: (25)

timing looks like it's in the right place to me, most write off knock counts under 10 so i don't think that little bit of knock count you're having could cause damage, not to mention the humidity and temp could have played a role.

evo 8 ya

iTrader: (31)

yeah that's what I was thinking too. but it's not going to be getting cooler anytime soon here in maryland. 100 degrees today and 101 tomorrow.

Mad_SB

iTrader: (8)

Regardless of if a 6count of knock is something to worry about or not, you are giving up some performance by letting the ecu pull out 3 degrees or so of timing, if you drop your target numbers by a degree and keep the ecu from pulling any timing most of the time, you will get a little more power out of the map and a smoother feel under WOT.

cpoevo

iTrader: (1)

^what he said. Over all though it doesnt look too bad.

nj1266

iTrader: (6)

What are your mods? Who is your tuner? I think I know who it is, but I would like to make sure.

As a general rule of thumb, when AFR is leaned out, then timing should be retarded. That is what my tuner did.

I would rather see more timing retard at peak boost/torque (3500-3700) that you have in your timing log. A stock timing log of an EVO has about 3* at peak torque/boost conditions and it is running a very rich AFR.

05 EVO stock ECU
RPM Timing
2426.0, 27.0
2453.0, 18.0
2543.0, 16.0
2613.0, 13.0
2688.0, 12.0
2785.0, 10.0
2895.0, 9.0
2977.0, 7.0
3117.0, 5.0
3238.0, 5.0
3379.0, 2.0
3543.0, 3.0
3746.0, 4.0
3910.0, 5.0
4090.0, 8.0
4277.0, 8.0
4418.0, 8.0
4574.0, 7.0
4770.0, 8.0
4922.0, 8.0
5074.0, 9.0
5254.0, 10.0
5406.0, 9.0
5563.0, 8.0
5730.0, 9.0
5875.0, 10.0
6039.0, 12.0
6180.0, 13.0
6352.0, 15.0
6477.0, 16.0
6625.0, 18.0
6758.0, 19.0
6875.0, 19.0
6988.0, 20.0
7117.0, 20.0
7227.0, 21.0
7289.0, 21.0

hondafan

iTrader: (25)

i've always heard most people running 7-8 degrees at peak boost and advancing on up after around 5K in their evos(stock turbo, pump gas, bolt-ons). plus, i think i read in another post that it takes 5 or more(maybe 10)knock counts before your ecu reverts to the low octane map.

nj1266

iTrader: (6)

Here is the way I think of it. On my car with a TBE and a stock ECU map the peak boost/torque timing was 2-3 degrees at WOT. When tuners lean the AFR map, they usually retard timing. That is what I have seen from Shiv and Alfred at Tuning Tech and it is in line with the Xede tuning manual. Since his tuner leaned the AFR for him, then he should have retarded the timing. What I am seeing from his log is a leaned out AFR AND timing advance.

hondafan

iTrader: (25)

that's what i see from my tuner as well. you have to remember that the stock maps are ultra conservative in fuel and timing.

Mad_SB

iTrader: (8)

So from his logs, his lowest advance is occuring around peak torque and that is good, then ramping up from there. The higher knock counts (relative to the logs) are occuring in the peak torque region.

I would lower the target timing value in the 220 and up load cells at 3000 and 4000 by 1 or 2 and then from like 140 or so and up load at 6000 and above lower by 1. From your logs I would try to target 6 degrees from 220 and up at 3000 and 4000. Also, smooth in the change, so if dropping down to 6 at 3K and 4K would have the target jump up by two degrees or more from 4k to 5k, you may want to pull a degree at 5k so your not ramping up too fast.

That will still give you a few degrees more advance at peak torque over stock and prevent the ecu from pulling timing. You may find that after doing this your knock moves up in the rpm range, hence the reason I reccomended going ahead and dropping the timing up top by a degree or so.

If you still get knock in the 2500 - 3000 range you will need to lower timing from the 140 or so range and up at 2500 and 3000 by a few degrees.

And I'm guessing his traget at peak torque is currently set at 8 degrees..... FWIW

nj1266

iTrader: (6)

It is good that he is having timing retard at peak boost/torque, but is it enough? If a stock ECU on an 05 Evo retards timing to 2-3* at peak boost and it runs an AFR at 10-9.xx:1, then leaning the AFR to 11:1 and ADVANCING timing is not good. When you lean the AFR, you usually retard timing on a TBE EVO with no other mods. That is what I have seen tuners do over and over again.
I would pull back more timing than that especially at peak torque/boost. Hitting zero or 1-2 timing advance in that area is what I would do since at peak torque/boost is the highest likelihood of knock.
IMO, and this is from the maps that I have seen, you do not want timing advance at peak torque/boost when you leans out the AFR. You need timing retard.
Well that tells us why his peak boost/torque timing is hitting 6-7

Warrtalon

iTrader: (6)

NJ, you're way off. The stock AFRs at peak boost are VERY LEAN at around ~12.5. Why did you think they were in the 10s? The stock AFRs don't drop into the 10s until after 5500rpm. The stock AFR profile starts very lean before and during spool, then it gradually goes rich as RPMs rise.

You DO want good timing at peak boost, AND you want it a little lean for what is called "lean spool." It's not the same as having timing and lean AFRs where there are higher cylinder temps. Go look at Shiv's tuning even - VERY LEAN at peak boost. 6-8* at peak boost gives awesome torque. This knock is low and not significant. This is how we get a lot of our torque over stock - the timing's too low in the stock maps. Arguing that the stock map target timing at peak boost is more proper is like saying the high 9 AFRs at 6500rpm are proper...

Hitting 0-2* timing at peak torque would be like running an SAFC on stock injectors and would be a total waste, since the torque would suck.

Mad_SB

iTrader: (8)

I don't disagree with what you are saying. I'm speaking from my experience with an 03 with turbo back and a little more boost than stock and ecu plus logs. I can run 5 or 6 degrees at peak torque with 11.5:1 20 psi or so of boost in 3rd gear with knock sensor voltage in the .5-.7 volt range. The general idea is to run as much timing as you can at peak torque with ZERO knock and some safety margine, so he is getting a little knocking at 8* then drop it to 6*, if it still knocks drop it to 4*. Retarding timing beyond what the engine needs (and a little safety margine) is just wasting torque and increasing EGT's.


And in general, the whole reason people are retuning their ecu's is cause the stock ecu is to conservative

Now up top is another story, you do need to retard a bit up top as the stock timing maps are a little too agressive up top.