Ludikraut

iTrader: (17)

Assuming an '03 Evo, kf6ytc's timing curve looks to be correct. I would suggest getting a wideband to help figure out why so much knock activity is being generated at higher RPM. You'll either have to add some fuel (unlikely, assuming stock maps), or pull a little bit of timing. A general rule of thumb is that as you run higher boost, you'll have to pull some timing out. Most Evo's cannot sustain aggressive timing and high boost at the same time.

NJ and Evo_kid, unless the car is running well below the Load it should be running at, there is no way that you are going to get those kind of timing values on an unmodified stock map.

l8r)

dan l

iTrader: (3)

I took the fuel on my friends TBE 04' evo to 11.5:1 on stock timing (not wideband verified, just edited the fuel maps) and it loves it. I like the stock timing, works great. You may have other issues however.

Mad_SB

iTrader: (8)

Well, if you did not use a wideband then how do you know you are at 11.5:1?

Hey if you can run 20* advance at 7k thats great, I don't think most can though, at least not myself and a few other I know.

At any rate, he is not trying to run that much timing, and with the cams etc, it should be pushing over 1750hz (I'm hitting 1750 with just tbe and boost control) so it "should" stay far enough to the right on the map to avoid too much timing, but still, tune it for the car not the theory, if it knocks with 16-17 up top then either take out more timing or add more fuel or both. Your better off to be a little conservative and keep the ecu from pulling timing on it's own cause it will often pull more than you would have needed to in order to prevent the knock in the first place.

taenaive

iTrader: (20)

you are knocking at high RPM range( above 6000). And you should be able to hear pinging when you lift off the gas with that over 100 knock counts. that is not good at all.

you might have problem with the fuel supply. do you have a walbro fuel pump?
if you have that, It could be that your injectors are maxed out at those high RPM area. stock map is rich and safe enough for the stock turbo.

nj1266

iTrader: (6)

The timing log that I posted was for a stock ECU with stock boost with a TBE and drop-in filter. The 05 EVO has more aggressive timing than the 03-04 Evo. It comes like that from the factory. It is perefectly normal to see 21-22* at 7K on an 05. I think the 06 Evo is the same, but I am not sure.

When my car got tuned with the Xede the timing log from the OBD2 became meaningless. But I finally figured out a way to get to the real timing with help from Jorge T. Here is what the timing numbers look like before and after the Xede adjusts them.



So it is possible, as Dan suggested, that his car has the correct timing with cams @ 14*. I do not have cams and I do not know what timing should be with them. I still want to know if he has a Walbro pump. That might be the problem for him. Running cams, TBE, MBC w/o a Walbro is dangerous.

RazorLab

iTrader: (8)

nj1266, you are running really low timing for stock turbo. I run more at peak trq then you do at 6,000 rpm. Is this is with taking fuel out with Xede as well?

nj1266

iTrader: (6)

This is with taking fuel out to 11:1. This is my 91 octane custom map tuned by Alfred @ tuning tech. The timing is not an exact match since the Xede log timing was not taken on the same day as the pocket logger timing. This was way back in April 06.

I am just using it as an illustration of what Dan said about 14* being ok at the high end.

Now that I figured out how to log timing with the Xede, I will use both the pocket logger and Xede logs at the SAME time and figure out the real timing. It is a bit of a PITA, but that is the only method to log timing with the Xede.

That is why I love the ECU+. It is such a great logger. But it does not control boost and does not carry two maps.

Why can't someone make a piggyback that has the best of both ECU+ and Xede?

RazorLab

iTrader: (8)

If you are using the ECU+, you either have a laptop or PDA, which can carry infinate maps.

nj1266

iTrader: (6)

I was refering to switching maps on the fly. Right now I burned a 91 octane map and a 93 octane map, just in case I cannot find a station that carries 100 octane so I can mix it with 91 octane.

But I love ECU+, especially the dyno

dan l

iTrader: (3)

1. Running high amounts of timing is not a good thing, it is something you don't want to brag about. It shows the relative inefficency of your mixture burn. If you want a slow burn rate buy a 1g dsm like I have and wallow in how inefficient our cylinder head design is and how big timing cost us big power with respect to mechanical efficency.

2. Airflow Hz is more meaningless than me quoting an a/f change in ecuedit. Hz is one part of a three part equation that involves air speed (hz), air temperature, and barometric pressure.

3. My friend doesen't have a wideband, I'm sorry I can't quote scientific numbers. However in order to be as precise as possible I noted how I "measured" it. In my real life experience it is fairly close however, within half a point. Or, in other words since a/f changes with engine ramp rate I'd have to quote a wideband reading with respect to what gear I am in and how quickly I accelerated from one RPM range to the next. The concept of what I was trying to convey however is that you can lean the **** out of the stock maps for a BIG difference and the car LOVES it! The stock timing maps nicely compliment this leaning out of the mixture.

Mad_SB

iTrader: (8)

I don't think we are reading each other posts correctly or something dude...

I agree that leaning the afrs's out to the 11's is where it is at and evo's respond very well in that range.

I guess the part we disagree on is the stock timing map. I found, as have others, that I had to pull some timing up top, add some timing at peak torque. I'm hitting 4* at ptq and 16 at 7k.

All I was trying to say is if he, or anyone else can run the stock timing map with reasonable afr's without knock then more power to them. Your self included

dan l

iTrader: (3)

Sure, but its car dependent. Is it possible the reason some people can run well on stock maps and others can't have to do with different mods? Even how a particullar MBC goes into boost and holds it will affect how much perceived timing you can run. Threshold boost timing edits (peak torque on most cars) and higher rpm timing edits are a big part of the game.

AlwaysinBoost

iTrader: (17)

Its funny, I started out tuning for MASSIVE amounts of timing up top and making the A/F super rich (in the 10s all over the place). The car was smooth and I 'thought' it was fast. Then I did a reality check and saw that something was wrong with my method because I shouldn't be able to run 15* @ 6k RPM.

Now I run @ 16* at 7k RPM with A/F in the 11s and the car is just as smooth but feels even faster.

I can't wait to get to the track and see the results.

dan l

iTrader: (3)

Unfortunatley the 4g63 (especially older versions) don't like to run lean on pump gas. They just respond so well to boost that you have to run a tick rich and run the boost you need to move the air (take advantage of that closed deck iron block why don't ya). Anyways, with race gas and a good tune it is absoutley insaine I assure you. I've become accustomed to leaning it out till it sounds good by ear then pushing the ignition timing to the knock threshold while watching my trap speeds. With good gas, leaned out real well it just sounds great under boost. Its kinda tinny sounding like a nascar and very responsive. When its too rich its just mellow (like on pump gas).


Wanna know how slow and inneficient the burn is on a stock 6 bolt 4g63. I run 26 degrees of timing at 6500rpm's in my car on race gas at 30lbs of boost. At that boost level, burning that slow, its just retarded inneficient. That means that for roughly 25 degrees of crank angle my mixture is burning, pushing the crank backwards before the power stroke to actually provide forward momentum. However to place my area of peak burn pressure at a good mechanical advantage that is the price I have to pay. On race gas, you can lean the mixture to "fool" the motor into burning quicker. On pump gas I tend to run rich to artificially slow down the burn rate because pump gas is that much of a ***** to tune on.

nj1266

iTrader: (6)

Hey Dan,

Does that mean that the burn chamber on the old 4g63 was poorly designed? Did Mitsu imporve it on the Evo? Running at 10:1 or less stock suggests that Mitsu did not improve the burn chamber much. What do you think?