Don't think it's the tuning - trying to find the culprit
Oct 10, 2006, 03:01 PM
#16
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
In the logs I was reviewing the knock was starting at 2750 rpms and in one log it hit 23 knock count there and held steady knocking all the way through the power band
The interesting thing to note is that at that exact map location the STOCK TIMING is slightly HIGHER than the flash tuned timing so razorlab's theory is not accurate
The interesting thing to note is that at that exact map location the STOCK TIMING is slightly HIGHER than the flash tuned timing so razorlab's theory is not accurate
My theory is accurate, wither or not it is his problem, is still to be determined.
Here is my post quoted again:
Originally Posted by razorlab
In all honesty, with 8* advance at peak torque you are probably on the edge or over MBTT. Which is probably why the knock isn't consistant. Some pulls everything is nice and cool or feeling great, clean pull, next pull things are a little hotter, or you are on a incline, or other factors and it knocks and pull timing.
Try putting your timing at 3000 to 4500 to 4-5 degrees and see if your pulls become more consistant and knock less or not at all.
Try putting your timing at 3000 to 4500 to 4-5 degrees and see if your pulls become more consistant and knock less or not at all.
Oct 10, 2006, 03:08 PM
#17
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Originally Posted by mchuang
Maybe you have a faulty injector. If the higher octane dont fix it then go to get your injectors flow tested.
++++++++1
I was chasing my tail for a long time on knock and it turned out the be a bad injector.
Pull the plugs and look down at the tops of the pistons with a good flashlight. They shold all be uniform in coloration, carbon black. I had 1,2 & 4 black as coal while 3 was.. well.. tarnished metal looking with no carbon at all. #3 injector was bad.
RC Engineering will clean and flow test them for $125. But I would save that for after the race gas, since you may be dealing with mechanical noise rather than knock.
Oct 10, 2006, 03:57 PM
#18
Originally Posted by mad_VIII
++++++++1
I was chasing my tail for a long time on knock and it turned out the be a bad injector.
Pull the plugs and look down at the tops of the pistons with a good flashlight. They shold all be uniform in coloration, carbon black. I had 1,2 & 4 black as coal while 3 was.. well.. tarnished metal looking with no carbon at all. #3 injector was bad.
RC Engineering will clean and flow test them for $125. But I would save that for after the race gas, since you may be dealing with mechanical noise rather than knock.
I was chasing my tail for a long time on knock and it turned out the be a bad injector.
Pull the plugs and look down at the tops of the pistons with a good flashlight. They shold all be uniform in coloration, carbon black. I had 1,2 & 4 black as coal while 3 was.. well.. tarnished metal looking with no carbon at all. #3 injector was bad.
RC Engineering will clean and flow test them for $125. But I would save that for after the race gas, since you may be dealing with mechanical noise rather than knock.
Oct 10, 2006, 04:20 PM
#19
Put the stock map on and see what you get. You should get a few (like1-3) random knocks ever now and then. If the stock map runs as it should, it would rule out everything(fake knock, octane, DP hitting, etc, etc) and means your tune is off.
Like Razor said, a tune can be to aggressive and only knock every couple runs (like 1 in 4), but when it knocks, it could knock like crazy (like its doing). Reguardless, in that sitution, it would be the tune and nothing else.
Easiest way to check would be throwing the stock ROM back on, like I said.
Also, thats the most knock I've seen. The fact that your motor didnt blow is crazy. I didnt know that knock could go that high. I got scaried on my friends car, when we saw 10-12.
Like Razor said, a tune can be to aggressive and only knock every couple runs (like 1 in 4), but when it knocks, it could knock like crazy (like its doing). Reguardless, in that sitution, it would be the tune and nothing else.
Easiest way to check would be throwing the stock ROM back on, like I said.
Also, thats the most knock I've seen. The fact that your motor didnt blow is crazy. I didnt know that knock could go that high. I got scaried on my friends car, when we saw 10-12.
Oct 11, 2006, 01:39 PM
#20
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A few comments
FIRST - its sad that even though I tuned just about 4,000 evos WITHOUT ANY incidence of tuning related problems . . . . I still have to deal with the arm chair newbie tuner experts who warn of dire danger with my tuning. I would have hoped after 3 years of tuning evos and NO PROBLEMS that some of you would give me a tiny bit of credit for what I have done - what ever is all I can say.
SECOND - I sent this customer a "special map" to test to compare against my custom tuned map
He is still picking up the same random knock occurence as he saw with my tuning.
Obviously the "problem" is not likely a bad knock sesnor or something loose on the motor of the down pipe hitting the frame.
My tune is not what is casuing the problem as it does the same thing with the 100% stock tune.
Thanks
Al
FIRST - its sad that even though I tuned just about 4,000 evos WITHOUT ANY incidence of tuning related problems . . . . I still have to deal with the arm chair newbie tuner experts who warn of dire danger with my tuning. I would have hoped after 3 years of tuning evos and NO PROBLEMS that some of you would give me a tiny bit of credit for what I have done - what ever is all I can say.
SECOND - I sent this customer a "special map" to test to compare against my custom tuned map
He is still picking up the same random knock occurence as he saw with my tuning.
Obviously the "problem" is not likely a bad knock sesnor or something loose on the motor of the down pipe hitting the frame.
My tune is not what is casuing the problem as it does the same thing with the 100% stock tune.
Thanks
Al
Oct 11, 2006, 01:41 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by razorlab
I said peak torque, not 2750. Show me the stock map where it has 8* at peak torque.
My theory is accurate, wither or not it is his problem, is still to be determined.
Here is my post quoted again:
My theory is accurate, wither or not it is his problem, is still to be determined.
Here is my post quoted again:
OH I forget they only have 91 octane on the west coast
We have 93 on the east coast
case closed
Last edited by DynoFlash; Oct 11, 2006 at 02:00 PM.
Oct 11, 2006, 02:01 PM
#22
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
A few comments
FIRST - its sad that even though I tuned just about 4,000 evos WITHOUT ANY incidence of tuning related problems . . . . I still have to deal with the arm chair newbie tuner experts who warn of dire danger with my tuning. I would have hoped after 3 years of tuning evos and NO PROBLEMS that some of you would give me a tiny bit of credit for what I have done - what ever is all I can say.
Al
FIRST - its sad that even though I tuned just about 4,000 evos WITHOUT ANY incidence of tuning related problems . . . . I still have to deal with the arm chair newbie tuner experts who warn of dire danger with my tuning. I would have hoped after 3 years of tuning evos and NO PROBLEMS that some of you would give me a tiny bit of credit for what I have done - what ever is all I can say.
Al
You have to realize at some point that not ALL PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD ARE TUNER NEWBIES.
I've been messing with and tuning 4G63 powered cars for over 9 yrs, last I checked, that's longer then you have, so I say this with politeness, stop bringing that same crap everytime you feel contested on a subject.
He came to the ECUFLASH forum to ask for ideas from US. I gave him one. Is this the dynoflash forum? no.
Last edited by razorlab; Oct 11, 2006 at 02:05 PM.
Oct 11, 2006, 02:09 PM
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Interested in the outcome... I'm just curious as to what the deal is... I'm still thinking it's got to be mechanical... keep us updated and ignore the bs 
Oct 11, 2006, 03:11 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by razorlab
Al, seriously you need to get over yourself. I was not saying the tune was bad, I was suggesting a problem solving technique much like what you where doing.
You have to realize at some point that not ALL PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD ARE TUNER NEWBIES.
I've been messing with and tuning 4G63 powered cars for over 9 yrs, last I checked, that's longer then you have, so I say this with politeness, stop bringing that same crap everytime you feel contested on a subject.
He came to the ECUFLASH forum to ask for ideas from US. I gave him one. Is this the dynoflash forum? no.
You have to realize at some point that not ALL PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD ARE TUNER NEWBIES.
I've been messing with and tuning 4G63 powered cars for over 9 yrs, last I checked, that's longer then you have, so I say this with politeness, stop bringing that same crap everytime you feel contested on a subject.
He came to the ECUFLASH forum to ask for ideas from US. I gave him one. Is this the dynoflash forum? no.
Look - there is no rocket science in tuning
I found it to be mostly hard work and trial and error
It really annoys me to read through your opinions posted as facts - particularly on something you have never tested
Example
Originally Posted by razorlab
In all honesty, with 8* advance at peak torque you are probably on the edge or over MBTT. Which is probably why the knock isn't consistant. Some pulls everything is nice and cool or feeling great, clean pull, next pull things are a little hotter, or you are on a incline, or other factors and it knocks and pull timing.
Try putting your timing at 3000 to 4500 to 4-5 degrees and see if your pulls become more consistant and knock less or not at all.
In all honesty, with 8* advance at peak torque you are probably on the edge or over MBTT. Which is probably why the knock isn't consistant. Some pulls everything is nice and cool or feeling great, clean pull, next pull things are a little hotter, or you are on a incline, or other factors and it knocks and pull timing.
Try putting your timing at 3000 to 4500 to 4-5 degrees and see if your pulls become more consistant and knock less or not at all.
I spent over 100 dyno hours on R & D before my first tune so I have some ideas about MBT on 93 octane
I have prob spent several thousands of hours tuning and diagnosing evos all over the United States, it is really bizzare to me that people will question what I have done without any facts or data to support their "opinions"
Oh well its a free world - everyone can say what ever they want
Peace
Last edited by DynoFlash; Oct 11, 2006 at 03:15 PM.
Oct 11, 2006, 03:18 PM
#25
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
It really annoys me to read through your opinions posted as facts - particularly on something you have never tested
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
I have prob spent several thousands of hours tuning and diagnosing evos all over the United States, it is really bizzare to me that people will question what I have done without any facts or data to support their "opinions"
Either way, this is going off-topic.
Oct 11, 2006, 03:29 PM
#26
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
A few comments
FIRST - its sad that even though I tuned just about 4,000 evos WITHOUT ANY incidence of tuning related problems . . . . I still have to deal with the arm chair newbie tuner experts who warn of dire danger with my tuning. I would have hoped after 3 years of tuning evos and NO PROBLEMS that some of you would give me a tiny bit of credit for what I have done - what ever is all I can say.
SECOND - I sent this customer a "special map" to test to compare against my custom tuned map
He is still picking up the same random knock occurence as he saw with my tuning.
Obviously the "problem" is not likely a bad knock sesnor or something loose on the motor of the down pipe hitting the frame.
My tune is not what is casuing the problem as it does the same thing with the 100% stock tune.
Thanks
Al
FIRST - its sad that even though I tuned just about 4,000 evos WITHOUT ANY incidence of tuning related problems . . . . I still have to deal with the arm chair newbie tuner experts who warn of dire danger with my tuning. I would have hoped after 3 years of tuning evos and NO PROBLEMS that some of you would give me a tiny bit of credit for what I have done - what ever is all I can say.
SECOND - I sent this customer a "special map" to test to compare against my custom tuned map
He is still picking up the same random knock occurence as he saw with my tuning.
Obviously the "problem" is not likely a bad knock sesnor or something loose on the motor of the down pipe hitting the frame.
My tune is not what is casuing the problem as it does the same thing with the 100% stock tune.
Thanks
Al
Also, If you such the great "tooner", then why is it that every week someone with one of your tunes comes on and post logs with the knock sums though the roof.
Oct 11, 2006, 03:51 PM
#27
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Keep this On topic for the OP,
Check mechanical knock, a warn/warped Clutch can cause serious knock, i was getting knock counts of 23 on c16 and only 20psi boost 4* timing before i swapped out my clutch, with my new RPS Twin carbon 0 knock (8* a peak Tq 22psi and 91pistane)
Check mechanical knock, a warn/warped Clutch can cause serious knock, i was getting knock counts of 23 on c16 and only 20psi boost 4* timing before i swapped out my clutch, with my new RPS Twin carbon 0 knock (8* a peak Tq 22psi and 91pistane)
Oct 11, 2006, 04:38 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by Evo_Kid
Put the stock map on and see what you get. You should get a few (like1-3) random knocks ever now and then. If the stock map runs as it should, it would rule out everything(fake knock, octane, DP hitting, etc, etc) and means your tune is off.
Like Razor said, a tune can be to aggressive and only knock every couple runs (like 1 in 4), but when it knocks, it could knock like crazy (like its doing). Reguardless, in that sitution, it would be the tune and nothing else.
Easiest way to check would be throwing the stock ROM back on, like I said.
Also, thats the most knock I've seen. The fact that your motor didnt blow is crazy. I didnt know that knock could go that high. I got scaried on my friends car, when we saw 10-12.
Like Razor said, a tune can be to aggressive and only knock every couple runs (like 1 in 4), but when it knocks, it could knock like crazy (like its doing). Reguardless, in that sitution, it would be the tune and nothing else.
Easiest way to check would be throwing the stock ROM back on, like I said.
Also, thats the most knock I've seen. The fact that your motor didnt blow is crazy. I didnt know that knock could go that high. I got scaried on my friends car, when we saw 10-12.
I loaded the map and made serveral pulls. All pulls were done on the same stretch of road. All done in 3rd gear.
If you look at the attached maps all are within reason except one. This one abnormal log once again had _knock_counts_ through the roof.
Originally Posted by justchil
Interested in the outcome... I'm just curious as to what the deal is... I'm still thinking it's got to be mechanical... keep us updated and ignore the bs
I'm going to go under the car this weekend and look to see what kind of clearance I have around the DP. From a quick visual inspection it looks like I have enough clearance from the bottom.
I'm also going to try and swap out the knock sensor. If anyone has any first hand experience and would like to steer me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.
It's troubling that I get this spurious knock count because as you can see by the logs tons of timing gets pulled and power is compromised. Until I find this problem I'm always going to have this anomaly.
It's true that I posted on this forum for information. I didn't post to flame anyone. I _never_ posted who tuned my map, but many of you 'figured' out who it was. I was truly just searching for knowledge and wanted to know what others - more versed in these matters than me - thought.
Not everyone is going to agree with how someone does things. People are always going to take pride in their work. People are always going to think that they can do something better than the next guy. I find it very inappropriate when other vendors argue on this board. As far as I know Al has tuned more Evo's than many of the other tuners and I have never seen one post where something catastrophic happened to people's cars.
I respect all who have the knowledge to tune our cars. It's a skill that is much appreciated by many in this community.
I have to give credit to Al because he stepped up to the plate and helped me troubleshoot the problem.
Now I just have to find the culprit and try and fix it.
If any of you have any ideas I would like to hear them.
I'm going to do one last test to allay my worries. Sometime next week I'm going to pick up some 100 octane fuel and dump in an empty tank and do some logging.
It's a great time to be an Evo owner because of all these tools that are coming out for us to use.
*** run number two has the high knock count ***
Oct 11, 2006, 05:26 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by kapolani
Al sent me a completely stock map yesterday.
I loaded the map and made serveral pulls. All pulls were done on the same stretch of road. All done in 3rd gear.
If you look at the attached maps all are within reason except one. This one abnormal log once again had _knock_counts_ through the roof.
I'm at a loss at what it could be. I wouldn't even know where to start looking for mechanical 'issues.'
I'm going to go under the car this weekend and look to see what kind of clearance I have around the DP. From a quick visual inspection it looks like I have enough clearance from the bottom.
I'm also going to try and swap out the knock sensor. If anyone has any first hand experience and would like to steer me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.
It's troubling that I get this spurious knock count because as you can see by the logs tons of timing gets pulled and power is compromised. Until I find this problem I'm always going to have this anomaly.
It's true that I posted on this forum for information. I didn't post to flame anyone. I _never_ posted who tuned my map, but many of you 'figured' out who it was. I was truly just searching for knowledge and wanted to know what others - more versed in these matters than me - thought.
Not everyone is going to agree with how someone does things. People are always going to take pride in their work. People are always going to think that they can do something better than the next guy. I find it very inappropriate when other vendors argue on this board. As far as I know Al has tuned more Evo's than many of the other tuners and I have never seen one post where something catastrophic happened to people's cars.
I respect all who have the knowledge to tune our cars. It's a skill that is much appreciated by many in this community.
I have to give credit to Al because he stepped up to the plate and helped me troubleshoot the problem.
Now I just have to find the culprit and try and fix it.
If any of you have any ideas I would like to hear them.
I'm going to do one last test to allay my worries. Sometime next week I'm going to pick up some 100 octane fuel and dump in an empty tank and do some logging.
It's a great time to be an Evo owner because of all these tools that are coming out for us to use.
*** run number two has the high knock count ***
I loaded the map and made serveral pulls. All pulls were done on the same stretch of road. All done in 3rd gear.
If you look at the attached maps all are within reason except one. This one abnormal log once again had _knock_counts_ through the roof.
I'm at a loss at what it could be. I wouldn't even know where to start looking for mechanical 'issues.'
I'm going to go under the car this weekend and look to see what kind of clearance I have around the DP. From a quick visual inspection it looks like I have enough clearance from the bottom.
I'm also going to try and swap out the knock sensor. If anyone has any first hand experience and would like to steer me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.
It's troubling that I get this spurious knock count because as you can see by the logs tons of timing gets pulled and power is compromised. Until I find this problem I'm always going to have this anomaly.
It's true that I posted on this forum for information. I didn't post to flame anyone. I _never_ posted who tuned my map, but many of you 'figured' out who it was. I was truly just searching for knowledge and wanted to know what others - more versed in these matters than me - thought.
Not everyone is going to agree with how someone does things. People are always going to take pride in their work. People are always going to think that they can do something better than the next guy. I find it very inappropriate when other vendors argue on this board. As far as I know Al has tuned more Evo's than many of the other tuners and I have never seen one post where something catastrophic happened to people's cars.
I respect all who have the knowledge to tune our cars. It's a skill that is much appreciated by many in this community.
I have to give credit to Al because he stepped up to the plate and helped me troubleshoot the problem.
Now I just have to find the culprit and try and fix it.
If any of you have any ideas I would like to hear them.
I'm going to do one last test to allay my worries. Sometime next week I'm going to pick up some 100 octane fuel and dump in an empty tank and do some logging.
It's a great time to be an Evo owner because of all these tools that are coming out for us to use.
*** run number two has the high knock count ***
A few ideas
1- The stock knock sensor is fairly cheap - just replace it and see what effect that has
2 - Get some chassis ears such as the ones by snap on and listen to the engine as it is making that large knock count - that will help identify what the noise is
3 - Buy a $120 KNOCK LINK which gives you a great visual gauge of knock and uses a seperate Bosch knock sensor - I have one on all my turbo cars - see if it shows knock when the ecu sees it
Best of luck to track down a dicey problem
__________________________________________________ _______________
Final note for the peanut gallery
Knock counts DO NOT always = actual knock
Actual knock does NOT always trigger knock counts
The best way to identfiy actual knock is with your ears and by looking at the spark plugs
__________________________________________________ ______
Last edited by DynoFlash; Oct 11, 2006 at 05:31 PM.
