RALLInspired

explain wanting? when a car with that size turbo and that PSI need a smoothing of 12 to make a graph look like that something is wrong. Something u see on a dyno is that timing is what carries the momentum of the car. TIMING is the key to torque and power. And of course AFRs and boost play their role but there tends to be a pattern when it comes to these motors and based off what i've seen, done, and experienced 0* then drastic jumps to w/e timing isn't something cars "want" either.

post a graph with a smoothing of 3 or so. if the car is fast enough and the timing is correct as well as the logs being taken on a level/smooth enough road then the graph should be smooth without needing much help. Set your VD options to plot data points and log as minimal things as you can.

I hate seeing people posting VD stuff and only worrying about the number and making it LOOK smooth when theres really a bigger reason to use them.

Also keep in mind when using small maps u need to think about what the ECU will do when it interpolates between load and RPM cells.

tscompusa2

iTrader: (22)

You're supposed to tune a car based on max torque per every RPM level, in this case no car is gonna be the same.. lots of things are in effect that will effect what timing the actual car wants.

My personal car at 31psi is MBT @ 1* , at 41psi its MBT goes from 1* to around 4*. Boost & AFR related.

E85 you have to tune based on the dyno graph only, if you just guess numbers thinking its gonna react the same for every car, you will eventually start to vent blocks. If you're not venting blocks and you tune the same car on e85 based on other customers cars you have then you can thank the 4g63 for withstanding the daily abuse bad tuners give to it.

Your information is not good for the OP, so dont post it. Pretty much if the roads flat, he travels on the same road for each pull, he should start with less timing and slowly add it and review each degree as it adds HP/TQ. That is the ONLY safe way to tune e85.. you cant just go throwing numbers for e85 and think its good because another car likes 6 or 7* at peak. 6 or 7* at peak can be fine for one car, and blow up the next.

When tuning timing, I use a lower smoothing to find MBT at peak torque, and once i get a decent looking curve i will then slowly increase the ramp of the curve, but when i tune higher RPM levels i will set the smoothing to 20 to get a better verification of whats actually going on. no matter what, a smoothing of 20 will show gains per degree, if it dont then somethings seriously wrong.

Dont tell someone that "oh my car took 4* at peak, so yours will too" .. you will eventually pass mbt and chuck a rod on stock block with that tuning attitude with e85.

My personal car for example, a smoothing of 3 will be the same as a smoothing of 20 minus 5-6hp give or take at higher rpm. every car will be different though based on laptop, logger cable, rom, etc.. we are relying on the evoscan or whatever logger you're using to datalog and the data can be easily bottlenecked if the laptop is not up to the task.. ie, hard drive is dying, or slow, not enough processor, memory, spyware, 1byte vs 2byte, etc.

When mapping I use the 3d map to help me with smoothing the map out, and end result is always great. I am not a fan of the block style tuning and it makes a big difference how the car responds if you end up with smooth maps.

Some of this info im sure you already know, but i highly recommend you re evaluate the way you look at tuning e85, because no car is the same and even 1deg past the limit is a lot of abuse & is easily done at peak boost / torque area on cars without even realizing it when tuning remotely.

tscompusa2

iTrader: (22)

on your setup? about 12whp per degree id say atleast. if you want some assistance getting started on v7 pm me. you would greatly benefit from it at this point.

One of my basemaps + your additional tuning would get you a super nice running car since you already grasp the concept how to adjust the timing etc.

also when tuning e85 only go 1* at a time, as said 1* past will result in catastrophic cylinder pressure.

AFR on a street / drag car etc.. 12.1's is good. I run pretty rich downlow in my personal car, gets me a good 50wtq or more and car hits harder.

Drill_Sergeant

iTrader: (21)

here's smoothing of 1




here's smoothing of 2

tscompusa2

iTrader: (22)

youll spool the turbo faster if you pull tons more fuel at lower loads.. see how its at 14 afr at first? that should be starting around 12.5~ area, not 14's. hit it with a mid/high 12 until 4-6psi is built then richen it up in the 11's it will spool turbo faster and get the afr curve ready to ramp back up for the higher rpm, then target 11.9-12.1 till redline.

Drill_Sergeant

iTrader: (21)

i thought it was leaner for faster spool up.

i also tried starting around 12.8 last week and when it was that rich, it knocked a lot for me

i'll give it another whirl though.

i was originally trying to make it where it was drawing a straight line from 2000 rpms to the bottom of the dip when the 2nd pump kicks on. but it seemed like when i made it taper at the rate i wanted, when the 2nd pump kicked in, it went way too rich.

Boosted Tuning

iTrader: (12)

When using a richer AFR, the EGTs rise and spool the turbo faster.

Drill_Sergeant

iTrader: (21)

yes sir

tscompusa2

iTrader: (22)

you're throwing a blanket over real knock then. sort out the timing so it doesn't knock. keep in mind e85 will keep making torque as rich as 10.5 afr.

If you're on stock block, thats probably not the best idea.. id wanna keep the torque low.

92LaserRs

iTrader: (3)

Just got around to playing with my timing map. Wanted to get some input from the gurus.

Quick rundown on the setup. 1g DSM w EVO ECU. GM 3bar Map, and Gm IAT.
EVo 560s
GSC S2's
1mm over valves
mild port work
Aftermarket Intake
E3 16G
Eagle / Wiseco 9:1
EVO VIII FMIC
45psi Base Fuel Pressure
Pump 93
Wally 255HP
22psi

I think that covers most of the basics. If i missed something let me know.

Can post a recent log of mostly cruise but a few WOT pulls.

project_skyline

iTrader: (30)

The area you add timing to. So if you add 1* from 3000 to 7000 you want to see gains throughout that.

VGergo

iTrader: (3)

on E85 the best peak torque will come with 10.5 rich afr ? How would your e85 afr line look up ? 11.5 on spool up 10.5 at peak torque when the turbo boost in and than back to 12 until redline ?

tkklemann

iTrader: (6)

Your timing map doesnt look too bad, the thing that stands out to me as you read down the load columns, the number don't increase with uniformity. For example in the 140 column your timing is slowly increasing, then jumps down a number, then goes back up. I am just **** like that making sure the timing is always increasing or decreasing uniformly. The map itself as fas as the actual numbers go looks like it will work. FWIW, its pretty close other than idle timing values to my setup which runs 28-30 psi tapering to 24psi, loads of 330's to 260. My compression is ~10.3:1 though..


EDIT: Logs are always good as we will be able to see exactly how the car is responding to the actual values. In your case, with a DSM running an EVO ECU, that would probably be most beneficial to see logs along with the maps.

tscompusa2

iTrader: (22)

Do whatever makes the best power for your car. All I was saying was rich best torque can be achieved as low as 10.5 afr on e85 on a gasoline wideband.

I run mine with low timing & rich afr at lower rpm. I adjusted mine based on feel of car. big difference when you find the right afr your car likes for the timing you're running it at downlow. it will go from feeling held back / slouchy / to feel like it wants to pull more.

E85 stoichiometric 14.7-16
E85 max power rich 10.5
E85 max power lean 12.7

If you google search, youll find a lot of information about e85 scattered over multiple forums. there is a lot of information on dsmtuners about e85 also.

211Ratsbud

iTrader: (1)

boooooo thumbs down(removed my imgs)