Mellon Racing

iTrader: (38)

If you aren't friendly or aren't intelligent please move on to the off topic area of the forum, this thread isn't for you haha

as a tuner I'm often asked "can you tune me with the stock boost controller?" and to that I typically answer "we prefer a good mbc". So right up front everyone knows my stance on this debate and let me tell you why.

1. MBC's are cheap, easy to install and quick to adjust. Stock ECU boost controllers are tedious and time consuming to adjust, require many revisions to perfect the boost curve. This can add a substantial amount of time to the tuning process, especially for our remote customers. Couple that with the fact that there are many different 3port options out there, the settings can be quite different from car to car, further adding to the complexity.

2. The customer can make their own adjustments as needed with a MBC.

3. Unlimited boost

4. Keep it simple, less complicated devices equate to less chances for failure. No electronics, No wiring, No boost pills, No headaches.


I often hear these replies:

1. The stock ECU boost controller is free

2. I don't need to make adjustments once you tune it for me

3. It holds boost to redline whereas with a MBC the boost tapers off

to that I reply:

1. A good mbc like the Hallmas ES that we carry is 75.00 and doesn't require an upgraded pressure sensor or 3port controller unlike the stock ecu boost controller.

2. You will need to make adjustments to compensate for ambient temperatures changes which affect boost. Changes in seasons can account for several psi differences. These boost changes can bring on unwanted knock. Sometimes your favorite gas station changes their fuel quality or you're forced to get fuel from a gas station you're not familiar with, this can also cause knock.

Most customers are not proficient enough with the stock ecu boost control tables in the ROM to make their own adjustments. Also you may not always have a laptop in the car when you see a problem with the boost level.

3. Forcing a turbo to over-spin at high rpm to maintain a boost level doesn't necessarily mean you're maintaining horsepower. Most of our customers are on stock appearing turbos which create tremendous amounts of heat when pushed out of their efficiency range. There comes a point where you're just blowing air hotter than the 7th layer of hell which can sap the power.

Timing adjustments can be made to compensate for pressure drop on a MBC. I've yet to see a stock ecu boost controlled car outperform a MBC controlled car when they've both been tuned well. I need to stress "tuned well" because I've seen countless other tuners maps and many don't take advantage of timing when the pressure drops. I can't tell you how many times I've been asked "how the hell do you keep the power up and out that far on a small turbo?" The key is finding an efficient boost pressure for the mods/octane/turbo to operate within and giving the engine the proper AFR and timing it needs to work well.

I want to be clear that we prefer the MBC or a good aftermarket standalone EBC like the Greddy Profec B Spec II. However we've had some customers handle their own stock ecu boost controller settings and let us handle the rest. Also we've done some stock ecu boost control tuning, it's just not our first choice.

So with that, let's open up the debate and hear your views on the subject Please keep this friendly so it doesn't get locked. I know people are going to be partial to whatever they paid for but let's try to keep an open mind and hear others out. Whenever possible, back up any claims with facts and personal experience rather than simply regurgitating what a friend or guru said. We already have plenty of myths related to the EVO, let's not perpetuate them any further.

MR Turco

iTrader: (16)

With v7 ECB, in my opinion, has surpassed the MBC. Controlling boost in individual gears can benefit anyone. I prefer ECU controlled boost for the facts that you can sit in the car and tune the boost curve and you can SEE the boost curve (when using PSI based control). That said, i do think the MBC is easier and do suggest it to locals when i feel they can't understand the caveats of ECB.

Again, i think a lot of the V7 advancements have made ECB a more viable option, especially in areas where weather can vary a lot - here, in the fall and winter months, temps can varry almost 40 degrees in a day.

I wouldn't running higher WGDC at higher RPMs is over-spinning the turbo. If you are cognizant of the turbo efficient range then you can easily stay in more efficient pressure areas.

leecavturbo

totally with you chris.
for me my fav is the avcr.
1st. visual reference especially the trace feature
2nd. adjustable at will no laptops etc
3rd. boost control as i like it.

Mellon Racing

iTrader: (38)

good points Turco, thanks for the contribution. I'm intrigued with gear based boost control since my car tends to boil the tires off through 1st gear. I used the Greddy Profec B's 1st boost control setting to put the turbo at wastegate which is 20psi to controll the wild spinning, shift into 2nd and press a button for full boost. It would be nice to have this done automatically. I looked into the Eboost2 EBC a long time ago because it's standalone and has gear based boost control but after reading the documentation it sounded like a complete pain in the *** to setup. I read some reviews from owners and found that many couldn't get the desired effect that they were looking for.

Now I'm running 40-45psi of boost on e85 and the Greddy Profec B runs out of steam at 38psi so I've gone back to the MBC for unlimited boost control. (and unlimited spinning ) Gear based 3-port might be ideal or my car. I still think it's overkill for the average customer that doesn't have traction problems and wants a quick and efficient tuning process or isn't interested in learning how to tune boost.

Mellon Racing

iTrader: (38)

an EBC such as the AVCR that has an RPM Offset feature can also increase duty cycle at high rpm to keep the pressure up if it's wanted. That's something the Greddy Profec B Spec II is lacking. Of course you must first have a turbo that's capable of keeping up with the engines demand for air or you're never going to be able to keep the pressure up regarless of the duty cycle you give it.

For instance my Stealth and VR4 both have the Greddy Profec E-01 EBC and E-Manage piggy back. The RPM offset can be set at 100% duty cycle and boost still tapers off. The built v6 with stage III head and upgraded cams can easily out pace the twin 16 td05 and 15g td04 I have on them respectively.

FathouseFab

iTrader: (5)

Mellon, Try the NLR AMS-1000 or AMS-500 if you want multiple boost settings in a electronic controller. The AMS-1000 might be a bit overkill for a evo, but its the best boost controller in the world.

Fathouse

Mellon Racing

iTrader: (38)

I've read up on those, it's a badass unit (that's what she said ohhhhhh!) I probably should revisit the documentation to see if it's for me

Stradag

iTrader: (17)

I have had manual, HKS EVC V and a grimmspeed ebcs. The HKS EVC V is a very good choice. It Holds boost very well at all tempertures, Boost only varied about 1-2 psi in very drastic weather changes. Spool up was very fast and you can get the easy writer software to fine tune it more if you would like. It also has a boost cut off feature that doesnt allow the boost to spike over a certain preset.
After that I tried a Hallman Pro MBC, It was very easy to set and held boost pretty well. Honestly I think spool up was faster than the HKS EVC but that could probably be fixed with the easy writer software if I had it. The Hallman definetly droped off boost faster top end, but I was never tuned to the hallman so idk what kind of difference the timing compensation could of made. Over all very easy way to control boost.
Next I tried a Turbo XS manual boost controller. Honestly I think it may have had a bad seal or something because it was never consistant. Very slow spool and changed boost often. But like I said it may have had a bad seal. I borrowed it from a friend, never found out if it was broken or not.
Now I have the Grimmspeed EBCS. When I first bought it I had the same tune as before and I set up the grimmspeed myself in the ecu. For me I am very new at playing with ECU setting so I followed the instructions in the evowiki. The only thing I changed in the ECU was the Boost settings. I ran the same boost as the previous Boost controllers, but the grimmspeed needs no adjustment for weather changes and it improves top end power quite a bit. It feels like it keeps pulling instead of droping off. Now I am tuned by Tamer @ 4ws and it is amazing, pulls very hard all the way to red line. I am holding about 19.8 psi at redline spiking about 24-25 psi.
Another thing I like about the grimmspeed is paired with V7 I can have the ecu lower boost when it sees too much knock, that is a plus for me.
Overall I think they all can be good in thier own way, as long as your tuned for them. The only difference is the Grimmspeed has more options that you can do with it. Oh one more thing I like is I can get a race gas tune with V7 and I dont have to do anything with boost it will change as soon as I switch to the alternate maps.

To each his own I guess.
Hopes this helps
Good day sirs lol
Mike

JohnBradley

iTrader: (30)

Gear based stock ECU if needed I can see. Otherwise an AEM tru boost or Hallman are very effective. There is a way to tune for traction as well, why my dyno graph looks kinda like a Honda.

buchnerj

iTrader: (19)

Well I guess I will throw my hat into the ring here. I have had both the Hallman MBC and am now running that Tactrix 3-port with an Omni 4-bar (AEM UEGO and Boost for logging via OBDII). In my opinion you must have a good accurate boost gauge with logging features to get the most out of the MBC, or any boost controller for that matter. I noticed a serious difference between the Hallman dropping off pressure to redline as opposed to the 3-port. It also made daily drivability slightly better and led to less boost spikes, etc. I am also a newbie at tuning using ECU boost, but it is nice to have the graph in front of you and the confidence in that you know exactly how much pressure you are running and you can make small tweaks here and there. The MBC is very rudimentary, the Hallman had no marks on the knob to show how many psi you were increasing/decreasing so you always had to double check yourself with boost gauge logging anyway. So you have to go through the changing the knob, going in the car, doing a pull to check yourself, stop, pop the hood, dial it again, and so on... With ECU boost and the new features of logging WBO2 and boost via the OBDII port it is a one stop shop. Just set up logging via EvoScan and the OBDII and you can overlay graphs of everything you will ever need to tune the car correctly, and you can make adjustments on the fly in the car via your laptop. Yes, you need some experience with ECU tuning to be effective at doing this, but it is by no means incredibly difficult.

Mellon, I totally understand that you would prefer the MBC as opposed to ECU boost. It takes time to set up ECU controlled boost and some wiring to get them to log via the OBDII, and in most cases you are not at the customers car in person. So it is much easier to just have them turn a knob and send you a log, etc. Also, if you don't know what your doing behind the keyboard and you let the customer mess with some of his maps (specifically boost and timing) in the ECU that could lead to serious problems. So MBC to you is less stressful and time consuming, but I do believe that ECU boost is the thing of the future and it will soon eliminate all other electronic boost controllers, like the Greddy Profec, etc. There will always be a market for MBC's though, for those running drag cars that want nothing but mechanical elements running the car, just dial the knob up and rip it.

I am anxious to see all the other interesting elements comparing the two, so I am subscribed. Good thread.

Edit: I have yet to set up gear based boost, and am not sure if I will ever get around to it. I am very happy with things the way they are. Maybe sometime down the road I will play with it, but if it ain't broke don't fix it . Another nice thing about ECU boost that I have setup is the dual map feature for E-85 and 93 octane. Another thing to consider in the conversation.

Mellon Racing

iTrader: (38)

haha yeah I've done some auto cars and pulled timing to purposely keep the tq down to a level where traction is found again. It may not be the smokey burnout machine it once was but it won't lose 15 car lenghts to a 200hp wrx anymore either.

Mellon Racing

iTrader: (38)

lots of good points made here buchnerj, thanks for taking the time to post it all. The only thing I wanted to add was that with the Hallman pro (unlike the ES series) series they do have marks on top for adjustment reference and they do have an option for a remote cabin cable so you don't have to raise the hood. Just mount the control beside or under the seat and you can adjust it during a pull if you wanted to do it live.

I think it's going to be hard to replace simplicity, some people enjoy tinkering like us and others just want to get on with the racing. The standalone EBC's and MBC are typically easier to control and setup since they are less feature rich. I think there's always going to be a market for that.

OneEyedJack

iTrader: (6)

Ok, might as well post my two cents. Or fifty cents. Its probably going to end up being a few dollars - the angle I'm coming at this from is an engineering angle, as I am a mechanical engineer for a multinational industrial supplier of almost every auto OEM on the planet. We are beginning to dabble in the auto aftermarket, and have been working on valves for nitrous systems for various companies, and I just personally finished a design for a major aftermarket supplier for a new 3 port boost control solenoid. Unfortunately I can't give away many specifics as I am bound by non-disclosure agreements.

To me, this all comes down to what you want to do with the vehicle.

The MBC is a very simple elegant system. I use one on my Evo. You are simply overriding one spring constant with another. You set up the system to achieve a new/higher maximum pressure in a target gear, and re-tool the car's brain to compensate for it. Generally, for initial tunes, people see more power AND higher gas mileage. They do this by sacrificing safety factor. Safety Factor is something all engineers assign to any system or component, its value being anything greater than 1. Most consumer/industrial level applications are hard pressed to have a safety factor beyond 2, while aerospace applications can have factors as high as 10. This Safety Factor is an expression of how much stress the system can see before failure in comparison to its normal operating conditions.

You can bump these normal operating conditions to a higher level of performance without sacrificing much in the way of efficiency, however this is a detriment to your safety factor. Its a question of long term reliability.

The MBC is a much simpler system than an electronic boost control setup. The failure modes are simple and rare. You generally don't get mysterious boost issues at strange times due to an MBC - they are very straight forward.

If you favor reliability and speedy trouble shooting, I would go for an MBC. I use an MBC on my car because it is my daily driver. I want the performance, but I also don't want to spend too much time trying to fix issues with the car when I need it to get to work, in addition to not wanting to spend too much time and money on the dyno getting a complex system set up properly.

If you are shooting for the highest performance at any cost, I would almost always go with an electronic setup. The versatility is staggering as our ability to mind-screw the Mistu ECU grows.

When going with an MBC, you are simply moving one of the system's key parameters which is determined by the spring force of your wastegate actuator. You then adjust the system variables to compensate. The overall behavior is similar.

When going with an ecu EBC, you are re-tooling the entire system. You are changing how the system variables interact. The overall behavior is quite different.

This is how it is viewed from an engineer's seat. If this was my garage car, I'd go with an electronic setup. It's way "cooler." I'd love to have the time to sit there with my laptop jacked into the car's brain, messing with the way it sees its own bloodstream.

Now if that happens at 6:30am and I am late for a conference call, forget it. I need the thing to start up and go, and if something is wrong it needs to be as simple as a vacuum hose popped off.

To the argument that ecu EBC is cheaper because you already have one: the MBC will be cheaper and easier in the long run if you add up your time investment in the system in my opinion.

For my next project, I am working on a hybrid electric/manual system to achieve the best of both worlds and the failures of none when it comes to a daily driver.

Mellon Racing

iTrader: (38)

very nice post, good points for both sides of the argument. However, I'd like to add that some MBC's have a "cool" factor that the 3port or stocker doesn't:




or

OneEyedJack

iTrader: (6)

Touche Mellon. Touche.

Bottom line - simple is elegant and elegant is cool?