Partial Throttle Knock - Tuners PLEASE HELP!
Aug 12, 2010, 10:39 AM
#32
Well, JOT, I hope you are right, because that would mean I was okay all along. However, if that isn't the case, I was driving around with 10+ counts of knock for a week or so... 
Its not terrible since its low RPM low load knock which isn't catastrophic, but still not the greatest thing for a motor... I tweaked a few more things and did some logs. More graphs to follow.
Its not terrible since its low RPM low load knock which isn't catastrophic, but still not the greatest thing for a motor... I tweaked a few more things and did some logs. More graphs to follow.
Aug 12, 2010, 10:50 AM
#34
I even switched the rows from 18,14,11 to 17,14,11 and so on and that knock peak still stays. Same with the one above 19,15,11: I tried 18,15,12 and then smoothed it all out, but those are the last two serious areas I can't get under control 
Aug 12, 2010, 11:11 AM
#35
I think you are falling in a rut trying to take out 1 degree at a time. You definitely smoothed it out well now. But, like I said, pull a lot of timing to find out if it's real knock or not. Stop messing with one tiny degree in one little cell here or there.
First you need your answer if it's real knock or not. Then, if it is, you have to retune your map. If it's not, then you can put the timing back to where it was and adjust your knock sensor settings.
But, from your little tuning adventure so far, I would have to say that some (if not all) was definitely real knock. You went from 13 knock counts to a few areas of 4-6. That remaining 4-6 counts may be phantom knock. But, you're never going to figure that out taking 1 degree out of one little cell. Take a bunch out of the whole area to test it. If the 4-6 counts stay with 4-5* less timing, then it's phantom. If it goes away, it's real.
I know you don't want to mess your tune, but you have to understand the mehtod of determining real from phantom knock. You can always go back to as close as the original tune as possible. But, you first have to rule out the real/phantom knock issue with big(ger) changes.
First you need your answer if it's real knock or not. Then, if it is, you have to retune your map. If it's not, then you can put the timing back to where it was and adjust your knock sensor settings.
But, from your little tuning adventure so far, I would have to say that some (if not all) was definitely real knock. You went from 13 knock counts to a few areas of 4-6. That remaining 4-6 counts may be phantom knock. But, you're never going to figure that out taking 1 degree out of one little cell. Take a bunch out of the whole area to test it. If the 4-6 counts stay with 4-5* less timing, then it's phantom. If it goes away, it's real.
I know you don't want to mess your tune, but you have to understand the mehtod of determining real from phantom knock. You can always go back to as close as the original tune as possible. But, you first have to rule out the real/phantom knock issue with big(ger) changes.
Aug 12, 2010, 11:21 AM
#36
I am still not convinced ANY of it was real. Don't forget he removed a crappies of interpolation each time too. I think it's a mix of interpolation and noisier internals. I'm still not convinced it has been knocking at all. E85 is some tough stuff. Knocking in that area would be hard to do on purpose!
Aug 12, 2010, 11:43 AM
#37
I thought E-85 was supposed to be pretty knock resistant too! Thats why I was surprised it was knocking at a measly 120 load @ 2500RPM! I am not totally against the phantom theory, but I am also clueless as to if it is phantom why is it reacting so well and starting to subside with my changed in the timing map. I will remove a bunch more timing again here tonight. Well, we got it from 13 down to 4-6 with pulling 5* so I guess Ill just get drastic. I hate to completely kill the spool though.
Aug 12, 2010, 11:47 AM
#38
It is a very knock resistant fuel, but it's not really the load that may be causing the knock. It is the transition that may be causing it...exactly similar to why some people experience lift off knock.
The mere fact that it is at low loads and RPMs may lessen the probability of any real damage, but in my opinion, if it truly is real, it's better to be safe than sorry.
Again, don't worry about your tune or spool too much right now. And actually, lowering timing will most likely increase your spool (RPM wise). But, the further away from MBT you get, it will lose power. Your first issue is to determine real/phantom, then tune from there. You can easily get all of your spool or better and all of your power or better back. Just stop worrying about that right now.
You're definitely on the right track and improving. Just keep it up and you will find out for sure what needs to be done. Then, if your determine that the rest is phantom or partially phantom, then you can adjust your knock sensitivity and be done with it.
The mere fact that it is at low loads and RPMs may lessen the probability of any real damage, but in my opinion, if it truly is real, it's better to be safe than sorry.
Again, don't worry about your tune or spool too much right now. And actually, lowering timing will most likely increase your spool (RPM wise). But, the further away from MBT you get, it will lose power. Your first issue is to determine real/phantom, then tune from there. You can easily get all of your spool or better and all of your power or better back. Just stop worrying about that right now.
You're definitely on the right track and improving. Just keep it up and you will find out for sure what needs to be done. Then, if your determine that the rest is phantom or partially phantom, then you can adjust your knock sensitivity and be done with it.
Aug 12, 2010, 11:50 AM
#39
It is a very knock resistant fuel, but it's not really the load that may be causing the knock. It is the transition that may be causing it...exactly similar to why some people experience lift off knock.
The mere fact that it is at low loads and RPMs may lessen the probability of any real damage, but in my opinion, if it truly is real, it's better to be safe than sorry.
Again, don't worry about your tune or spool too much right now. And actually, lowering timing will most likely increase your spool (RPM wise). But, the further away from MBT you get, it will lose power. Your first issue is to determine real/phantom, then tune from there. You can easily get all of your spool or better and all of your power or better back. Just stop worrying about that right now.
You're definitely on the right track and improving. Just keep it up and you will find out for sure what needs to be done. Then, if your determine that the rest is phantom or partially phantom, then you can adjust your knock sensitivity and be done with it.
The mere fact that it is at low loads and RPMs may lessen the probability of any real damage, but in my opinion, if it truly is real, it's better to be safe than sorry.
Again, don't worry about your tune or spool too much right now. And actually, lowering timing will most likely increase your spool (RPM wise). But, the further away from MBT you get, it will lose power. Your first issue is to determine real/phantom, then tune from there. You can easily get all of your spool or better and all of your power or better back. Just stop worrying about that right now.
You're definitely on the right track and improving. Just keep it up and you will find out for sure what needs to be done. Then, if your determine that the rest is phantom or partially phantom, then you can adjust your knock sensitivity and be done with it.
Aug 12, 2010, 12:22 PM
#40
I wish u were near me. I'd pull the knock sensor off the block (but keep it plugged into the harness still), wrap it in a sock and tie it away where it can't pick up any vibration. Then I'd have you load the first map you posted and see if the internal ecu noise is an actual thing we need to consider during heavy interpolation calculations.
Last edited by Jack_of_Trades; Aug 12, 2010 at 04:34 PM.
Aug 12, 2010, 06:10 PM
#42
what are your low mid and high multiplier knock tables set to? youre running a buschur head and buschur shortblock.. these are not known to be the quietest 4g63's.. mine used to show 30 counts of knock just idling & reving up.
you should be somewhere around 18 20 20 or so.. Buschur motors are LOUD.
if youre all stuck on it being real knock and bypassing the knock sensor after you change the multiplier tables richen the map big time and if it knocks your knock settings are not hiding real knock..
on my setup i ended up with 18 20 20 if i use stock settings on the multiplier tables i get 30-40 counts of knock that are FAKE... so again your motor sounds like a tractor.. this i know because i start one up everyday, cept mines a 2.3
you should be somewhere around 18 20 20 or so.. Buschur motors are LOUD.
if youre all stuck on it being real knock and bypassing the knock sensor after you change the multiplier tables richen the map big time and if it knocks your knock settings are not hiding real knock..
on my setup i ended up with 18 20 20 if i use stock settings on the multiplier tables i get 30-40 counts of knock that are FAKE... so again your motor sounds like a tractor.. this i know because i start one up everyday, cept mines a 2.3
Aug 12, 2010, 09:21 PM
#43
I will take a look at my tables and try what you said tomorrow tscompusa. It is a pretty loud motor, especially at idle. I am honestly not sure what the multiplier tables are, so I will check and post it up. Thanks for the suggestion.
Aug 13, 2010, 08:42 AM
#44
Well, for some reason today I got in my car to drive to work and I was going to log it all the way here to see how things were progressing and so I could work on the map today. Well, I couldn't get the ECU to pair with the computer, basically it didn't detect that there was anything plugged in on that COM port . I will try and solve it and post up where I am not.
I am getting pretty close to less than 3 knock counts in every troubled area, but still working on that smoothing. Once I am 100% knock free, I will see which areas I can play with the timing numbers to try and get things back up to good power.
. I will try and solve it and post up where I am not. I am getting pretty close to less than 3 knock counts in every troubled area, but still working on that smoothing. Once I am 100% knock free, I will see which areas I can play with the timing numbers to try and get things back up to good power.
Aug 13, 2010, 09:15 AM
#45
