Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

Gentlemen,

Excuse the Remodel, gonna post the findings in this top post. Pictures coming, logs, data, etc. Busy busy when your a small business owner. Ok, more to come so check back.

Original Post: Also, Hom many of you would like to see me post my fully defined map up for you?

Thanks in advance.
[/QUOTE]

Updated with Findings:
Post 6:
Post 11:
Response to Aaron from English I beleieve or John Bradley team...
Post 13(educational):
Thank you for that SoCal

Controversial Topic starting at post 12 about about plug gap and economy
Findings:
So far, I have tries several gaps in the stock to near stock range, and have found a winner. .026 currently, solid with no interuptions on blastoff, top speed, or get off, more testing to follow. My GeekFu is strong...
Had a hardware issue to go along with it...
These coils are HOT They produce such a stong blast, that they were literally shocking the #1 and #3 Wires, the two that are actual plug wires to the socket...
These are the stock wires, with many plug changes. The claps that hold them to the spark plugs had a lot of give, slide, play, movement up and down off the spark plug. THe shock would literaly pop them completly off, where it was just resting in the chamber there, make a secondary gap iff you will for current to arc across. Yes I know I will edit with pictures here, also mentioning the discoleration and arc scaring marks on the plugs that I was talking about.

Theory, Open to suggestions on this on:
So in two of my cylinders, I was making the current jump two gaps, weaking the signal, causing lean and rich conditions at the same timw wich I believe is cylindar trim...

So I took my handy pair of needle nose plyers, and reconfigured or persuaded you might say, the clasp within the boot, and now they hold on tight! No sloshy, warn out, playing around, baby grasp, I mean they are on there. Safely...lol.

Now I wil continue my timing advance/retard on the .026 gap to see where we can go with these. stock boost settings if you will, 21 psi, and psi testing on this setup and maps and etc. Back soon with some eye candy!

chetrickerman

iTrader: (7)

i could be wrong, but you shouldnt have to adjust anything. the okada coils just deliver a more powerful spark. the ignition tables just tell the coils when to release that charge

what kind of timing are you running in that range that your getting knock?

mrfred

iTrader: (50)

in theory i suppose a brighter spark could result in a little faster burn and therefore decrease required ign timing, but i've not seen any data to support that. on e85 where tuning is not knock limited, it could also allow for leaner afrs without breakup, but again, no data that i've seen. so +1 for chetrickerman.

Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

Thank you both for that, and I have been getting that reply.

My theory is this. It takes a "x" amount of time for the spark to ignite and burn the entire mix. During that "x" amount of time the pistons move closer or farther to TDC. Ignition timing is adjusted just for that puprose, correct? I.E. We want it to fire lets say (hypothetical) 5 degrees before tdc. Sto0ck coils produce a spark, that takes "x" amount of time to do that procedure. There for ignition timing is dialed in degrees wich is a nice way of saying .005 seconds. Now, Stronger spark, stronger coil, makes the "X" factor speed up. Therefore it takes less "x" for the mixture to burn. Gap on the plugs affects this too. EDIT: First thing ios new plugs, BPR8EIS NGK's. Step colder, gapped at .032, current plugs gapped at .30... end edit.

Let me ask this, why does anyone, anywherem by an upgraded ignition like an msd or such. Stronger spark stronger bang, right? but thats not all, if you are dialed in on your tune, is it possible that a stronger spark can put your ignition timing off, just enough to have misfire or out of degree fire, that results in knock?

Possible backup support of this theory,
3 months ago, stock ignition, tuning the 21 psi map. I had my ignition timing set to close to 0, or in single digits in the high revs of the map. I chased this knock forever. Finally I noticed the knock wasn't pulling timing. I increased timing by 1 towards double digits, retested, and tested again, 0 knock. Till now...

I know im being black and white when I say 0, but I do have logs to show knock is an endangered species in my car. I am trying a few things and will post what I find.

Anyone else please share. Even if I am pissing up a flag pole per say. lol. May as well get all the knowledge out of these we can since no one else has done any tuning and timing with them. Looks like I won the straw vote! lol

Get back to me.

merlin.oz

Are the Okada coils physically bigger than the old coils?

What I am getting at here is that the coil size can be an indicator of more/less dwell-time requirement (charging or re-energising of the coil).
So the new coils may require a slight increase in the coil dwell time table for your setup.

Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

Thanks merlin, someone else had mentioned that to me as well. Physically they are just a tich bigger. Meening they have two quarter sized caps on each side, other than that, same size.

First glance, my IW24 Denso's were discolored after about a week of use under the new coils. Gap was at 29 ~30 depending on plug. Post pics later.

New plugs in, gapped at .032. idling good, we will run her for a test and report back.

EDIT: .032 caused the spark to blow out under boost... So far not impressed. Also, looking over logs from the last couple of days, looks like this is causeing a lean issue in areas... Plugs came out with a white powder like substance on them... As to NGK's site, they say they are good if I am reading right... -> http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_su...qs/faqread.asp

EDIT: .028 caused sever misfire, worse than before on .030... ???? I have logs for last night, though they weren't that great due to spark blowing out, so not much real data. Today I got a full pull and knocked to hell and back in 3rd gear. Not sure what to think here. Analyzing data as we speak. Will post more in a few. I know gap of spark plugs only plays a particular part, and really doesnt show much about the coils yet, but I need to stop the knock if I am going to test these to the limits.

Gonna go back to .030 gap, which I might add is what comes pregapped on these baby's. BPR8EIX's. Then I am gong to start playing with ignition timing.... I will go down in 1 step increments 200 load and above, block tune style just to see if I can see a new result. I will then go the other way as well.

EDIT: .028 test previous, cause to misfire has to be that the #1 cylander boot had lifted off the plug. Fixed. 2nd test, same issue, no loose boot, but have an idea...
I changed the WGDC in my map a little and am running pretty agressive timing in my ignition map. To high infact for the the timing I am trying to run at open boost. Checking that vs. logs.
Also, when all else fails, read the instructions...

Instructions say under #9: "If the engine performance previously boosted through modifcation of the ignition timing or AFR, it may require adjustmant following installation of the plasma direct coils." Pretty cut and dry there on tuning required...

EDIT: Currently running on .030 gap. Adjusted AFR Mixtur by .1-2 richer, since lean conditions were happening. Timing is coming down starting at 80 load through 320(as far as I have mine scaled for) I only pulled 1 degree to start with, since I had pretty tight timing tolerances on the stock ignition coils. Theory 1: THese are causing higher cyliner temps at the previous map, to where preignition is happing, since the logs don't show knock, but you feel the shudder under boost in the car as it stumbles and the CEL light flashes like a Time Bomb. In the logs I see a leaner mixture, I see the timing get pulled, but know knock. Also, This sublte change caused an issue with over boosting on ecu based boost control, so wastegate is getting adjusted down 1-2% duty cycles. Hotter cylinder temps, hotter ignition/combustion, hotter exhaust, faster spool, but hotter intake temps meen possible preignition. Stilol Testing. I will post logs, and stuff here shortly to come. Sorry nothing yet, but I am always on the go, so I post when I can...

Again any recomendatrions are greatly appreciated.

No clue here, can post a link to the reference, or shed some more light?

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

SoCalRedLine

iTrader: (2)

Sub'd


Little OT: I want to know whether changing to Okadas changes the coil response from critically damped to underdamped discharge. I've seen the ad in a few mags showing Okadas having an underdamped discharge...is there a downside to an underdamped vs critically damped discharge?

Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

Bump to top, updates in post 6. More tests tonight

Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

Bumpty Bump! Updates in Post 6. Pics soon I promise.

JohnBradley

iTrader: (30)

Gap is WAY TOO HUGE. Drop it to 0.018-0.020 and it will clear up. The misfires are being picked up as knock (light ones) and the big ones you feel normally.

aaron

Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

Aaron, I appreciate your input on this, however, I can show you logs with everything the same, minus the okada plasma coils, running on .30 gap, with 21 and 23 pounds of boost...
These coils also hae 4 times the initial spark, as well as many times the multi spark for duration. Here is some reading material... --> OkadaProjects

This only started when I put the new coils on....

So I have to ask again, why is it that these coils provide stronger spark, but yet I have a weeker system now?

Edit: Just got off the phone with OkadaProjects, here is what they have to say... "With these coils yes, you can run a degree or two of timing ABOVE what you normally run on stock coils."
I assume that meens if your pulling 8 at red line, I assume you can jump to 10...

He is gong to do a little more research for me on the settings if needed for the EVO 8. We will see what they say...

JohnBradley

iTrader: (30)

You are running low timing and a large gap. Misfires are common, I know you may have been able to do it in the past but there is also the possibility that the coils arent working correctly (bad out of the box, stranger things have happened).

While I agree that at that boost level you should be able to run a huge gap, it does nothing for mileage or power so why run it wide?

Aaron

SoCalRedLine

iTrader: (2)

Basically the coil is part of a RLC circuit. Okadas have a lower resistance therefore putting out a higher spark voltage. Downside of a lower resistance means that the entire circuit now swings up and down around it's transient voltage. Basically making lots of little sparks.
The stock coils are damped to reach it's transient voltage in one smooth curve, one long spark.
I only ask cause im a nerdy engineer that's about to graduate college
Here's a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transient_response

Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

All righty fellas, bump to the top. FIrst post has been edited to show summary to here with findings so far. I will continue to update those findings as I tune over the next couple of weeks. CUrrently it is 32 degrees outside with a high today of 36. Horrible tuning weather for the context of what we are tuning for. Look there for the updates on the coils them selves.

Controversial Topic:
Aaron, I am not pretending to begin to know if I am even close to the realm of what I am discussing on gap, I guess I am just following a hunch and where the logs and data leads me.
Just a debat here, to maybe get some data out, and play, if this things gets as bad as poeple are saying, you will make a lot of money being able tune peoples cars for maximum efficiency. Not being a chicken little here, just saying, look where the economy is shifting my friend.

Stock gap is I beleieve .030, with factory iginition timing, factory car(stock), I was able to get 320 + on 91, on rom 96420011 rom I bleieve, this was in 2008, height of the gas crisis that year. ALtitude and "boost addr" play part here, and I can explain I think. Long story short, I was tunded for 91, and sea level 14.7 afr. while climbing in altitude, the air becomes leaner, causing the boost addr to be off a factor, there fore lin theory causing less minute overboosts or throttle plays when you can't hold the throttle steady. As that factor drops say to 12.3, your boost becomes slushy per say, wastegate doesnt occilate to bad, just thinks its hitting higher boost when it really isnt, so infact your tricking the ecu based boost control into thinking that way. Stay with me. As you do this, less gas is require, afr stay nice, every body is happy, and smooth sailing on economy.

When you occilate the wastegate, you put more demand on the injectors because like a vacume or a draft, you creat suction on the turbo and exhaust to put more air in since boost is easy too spool at that rpm. SO if you can manage your wastegate occilation on throttle you can in theory give your self a redneck cruise control...lol

Back on topic, 20 years ago, you had to gap your plugs for proper combustion, I thought. If the gap is larger, hotter spark, bigger boomb, or better combustion, better economy in theory. Smaller the gap, weaker the energy needed to spark, weaker fire, poor economy due to the cylinder not fully buring. Hence the reason your cat, if you had on, is the secondary defense to dumping gas on the street that is not burned.

You have to claim that gas. **** and OCD, I know, but, I am just making what I think is the ultimate modern day multi functial horse. SO, if stock gap is designed for .032, and stock timing numbers, and you get that range, then you want to stay close to that as you tune. THose engineers detuned, and made our cars pass emissions(been covered a thousand times), its all about getting all the efficiancy out of your mods and tune. So I started planning for the parts I have in folowing the theary of ultimate economy on the soon to be lambo eater.

.026 on the gap, is close to the stock gap, no "boost blow outs" if you will, as well as fixing the clamps on the two plugs to hold tight, she ran clean in a 3rd pull, though my log on that pull was horrible, didnt capture all of it, and it was just to see if it was gonna fire off again, not for true tuning perspective. 38 ~35 timing, from 20 to 80 load, 15.3~4 Afr's, boost occiliation on the wastegate doesn't exhist, I also tuned it that way as to cup the boost right in the cruise realm for hwere I needed it to be, again, running stock boost patter in 5th, 18 psi, stock is 17 or so when you factor boost fade going towards redline. my wastegate solinoid is an 17~18 so I am really relying on wastegate pressure plus 1/2 cycle more if you will say, to keep just a little extra pressure to not let it run away, nor open as boost gets stronger.

Think of it this way, a hand off, though you want the transistioning object to really never feel the transistion from gravity to weightless to gravity. you want the hand off so smooth, that object doesnt realized it moved. Hence cupping on the wastegate to cup the boost curve. I have miniumum fade at redline of 7.5k in this case, it fades to 17 maybe a little lower 16.9 etc. This doesnt allow the boost or wastegate to occilate, and cause an iradic flow or creape or whatever in boost, so its smoooth. Your AFR's stay way more stable, I also have thew cupping the boost curve as well. Timing is a slide for boost, and AF'rs and Wastegate are controlers (hence cupping) like a cup holding liquid. Boost is force and its how you manage that force that leads to better balance and better fuel economy.

So gap, I spent 3 tanks on 18-20 on 21 boost, and best could get 220 to the tank.
on .030 gap, which was the gap I orginially ran to get my 375 range, no spikes, no blow outs. THe closer you dial in your boost, the closer you have to dial in your gap, to keep everything efficiant and balanced.

More data to follow, hope you all could follow and don't think I have lost it...lol

Currently now, with that said, if you tune for the efficincy of your mods, and balance that with power, you street fighter will be leathal. My car can run down averagly modded gen 3-4 cramaros with higher rwhp. Run them down. ...amd get this mileage. I achieve this through the "Tephra V7 gear based boost control mod" (Thank you Tephra, and how about the secondary boost adder for the alt map portion, please. If possible, You are the man ).

On a drag strip quarter mile, you barely hit mid 4th gear at the finish, leaving 5th gear to and 4th gear to give you ecomony, based on how you stage your boost, as well as timing, and the whole tuning sundae. Balance between power and economy.

While were at it, if I said I was working on way to recycle electricity, would you think I was crazy or mad...lol. Point being, all our advertising is selling points of how great and efficient our technology is. Though seldom does this economy and greatness exhist for the mighty dollar of supply and demand and keeping the economy going is keeping the river of money flowing. The markets are fixed with all the research that is available to make the maximum buck you can. Back to recycling energy, we'll see.

sujinX

iTrader: (22)

I have a question that might be off topic. How are these compared to spoolin cop?