Tuning Evo789 ACD
Jan 10, 2014, 02:18 PM
#46
Jan 10, 2014, 02:51 PM
#47
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Tomorrow I put a picture (23:42h in Spain) is not necessary for connection to pin diff ecu.
Direct wire to the ecu pin out between tight, very easy.
Jan 10, 2014, 03:00 PM
#48
Evolving Member
yes I understand. I mean, are your recomendations (as a happy rally driver) are more biased towards loose surfaces and rally style driving?
Last edited by Biggy VIII; Jan 10, 2014 at 03:17 PM.
Jan 10, 2014, 03:05 PM
#49
Evolving Member
Merlin, I am working with 401403 rom. I found that Gravel maps have more lock than Snow maps in A-Maps (Throttle lock up) section. Is that normal, or are the map names mixed up?
Jan 10, 2014, 03:46 PM
#50
I think evos are very easy and immediate (and safety) to drive even if you are not an expert driver. But that dosent mean that are the fastest setup.
Also that kind of settings are very personal and depend on the feeling you have with that car and that kind of tire with that kind of shocks and ect ect...
So Marlin, as I told you some days ago, I still have million questions for you...
As we have red in Geek forum many peaple from many years (for example Lee) tuned B maps with values similar to the odiern A maps. Were they modifing the behavior of acd vs throttle or lateral G? Look these pict..
How is it possibile that the lockup reduceing (B maps) are 100% till almost full throttle in stock maps?
Jan 10, 2014, 08:50 PM
#51
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
On some earlier definitions, the A-Maps were thought to be G-Force.
At this point in time I think the A-Maps are throttle maps and the B-Maps are G-Force.
The labels A-Map, B-Map and C-Map were a method of specifically identifying a map to a specific rom address and that was done because we knew we probably had the wrong description or at least it was open to some doubt. I think my ACD xmls have had at least 4 major revisions (map function changes) and many minor revisions (axis and scaling).
Floppyz, just read your post #44, I agree with all point made there 100% Nice to have an experienced rally driver chime in with informed comment. BTW, your English is improving too.
At this point in time I think the A-Maps are throttle maps and the B-Maps are G-Force.
The labels A-Map, B-Map and C-Map were a method of specifically identifying a map to a specific rom address and that was done because we knew we probably had the wrong description or at least it was open to some doubt. I think my ACD xmls have had at least 4 major revisions (map function changes) and many minor revisions (axis and scaling).
Floppyz, just read your post #44, I agree with all point made there 100% Nice to have an experienced rally driver chime in with informed comment. BTW, your English is improving too.
Last edited by merlin.oz; Jan 10, 2014 at 08:57 PM.
Jan 10, 2014, 10:50 PM
#52
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From what I Have been using, A maps have been G force vs Speed (kilometers). G force would be 0.0 to 4.0 range which is the voltage used to determine the G force load.
1.0 volts 1.5G Acceloration
1.5 volts 1.0G Acceloration
2.0 volts 0.5G Acceloration
2.5 volts 0.0G Neutral
3.0 volts 0.5G Deceloration
3.5 volts 1.0G Deceloration
4.0 volts 1.5G Deceloration
For A maps
Anything with ZERO is where the Delta between the front and rear axles will meet or are equal. Anything that is 1 or more (2,5,10,20) is the amount of degrees that the steering wheel will turn before both front and rear axles are equal. It will lock at that amount of degree input BUT only to be sure both axle become equal, Its NOT A FULL LOCK.
Example: at 2.6 volts or 0.1 G's, the steering wheel can be turned 2 degrees before it locks to be sure both axles are equal speed. As you decelerate harder to 3.0volts(0.5G), 3.7volts(1.2G), 5 degrees or even 20 degrees of steering input can be available. For that amount of degrees, it allows the wheels to be free. Power is free to go to the Front wheels (to pull) or free to go to the Rear(to push). If you Decelerate hard, there is very little weight at the Rear which can make the Rear wheels overpower the Front wheels(sometimes). So the ACD is OPEN longer to reduce Understeer and HOPE power gets delivered to the Rear!!!
On the STOCK Maps Tarmac is more Active then Gravel or Snow. In Gravel or Snow the ACD allows more Slips (Locks less frequently). On the Street, Gravel or Snow will allow the the car to be more Front Wheel Drive because the front tires make a Larger ARC while turning and the rear just drags and follows. Until the ACD starts to lock at 6 degrees or even 40 Degrees, the Rear matches the Front. At times, the Rear can overpower the Front. If the Rear overpowers the front (like with an upgraded REAR DIFF), it will take the same amount of steering degrees Input for the Rear to match the Front.
A Maps are Dominant and the condition will apply Unless B maps or C maps Say other wise.
The manufacture relied more on the A maps
B maps, C maps are limits
ALL other maps are Maximum Limits
For B maps
The B maps have been Throttle input vs Speed(kilometers).
Anything with a ZERO in the plot charts is Full Lock. Anything that is 100 or less is the amount of slip that is allowed.
Example: A Map will make sure the front and rear are equal at a steering Degree input.
B Map can still allow 100% slip AFTER A Map makes sure that both axles Match each others ARC (DELTA). B Map can allow 75% slip or 50% slip or 25% slip or 0% slip(NO SLIP)
If ALLLLL B Map is 0% slip OR FULLY LOCKED, YOU can have BIND also WEIRD and SCARY understeer or oversteer.
100% Slip is needed!!!! At the right time, speed, and condition then you can use 70, 50, 20, 0 slip, and that can be useful.
C map
Its speed vs Steering Degrees. 40 Degree increments.
A Map will do what it needs to do...
C map, if you steer to 40 Degrees or what ever degree is placed, it will allow 100% slip or what ever value is in the Plot.
Example: the row on the far left is "Steering Wheel Centered', then 40 degrees, then 80 degrees, etc.... as you steer away from "center" and approach 40 degrees, on STOCK it has 100% slip.
....OR you can have 50% slip or 10% slip. it can be 0% slip (Fully locked) as you TURN, get a little oversteer. YOU can give it power and then Unwind the steering back to "center".<<<< in the street that is fun
.
...In Dirt that can give you understeer
....scary
So this is My 401702xml and ACD Map. To use my xml all other 401702xml can not be in the same folder. My 401702xml has to be by it self, even to see my ACD map and to understand my explanation and understanding of the ACD. I have been tuning ACDs for 3 years and tried a lot with and with out Rear Differential upgrades.
I hope we can add as many features as we can with other xmls and sources. Lets have this be as open source as possible and learn from each other. Ill throw some fully tuned roms on here once people can understand the possibilities as this opens up more.
1.0 volts 1.5G Acceloration
1.5 volts 1.0G Acceloration
2.0 volts 0.5G Acceloration
2.5 volts 0.0G Neutral
3.0 volts 0.5G Deceloration
3.5 volts 1.0G Deceloration
4.0 volts 1.5G Deceloration
For A maps
Anything with ZERO is where the Delta between the front and rear axles will meet or are equal. Anything that is 1 or more (2,5,10,20) is the amount of degrees that the steering wheel will turn before both front and rear axles are equal. It will lock at that amount of degree input BUT only to be sure both axle become equal, Its NOT A FULL LOCK.
Example: at 2.6 volts or 0.1 G's, the steering wheel can be turned 2 degrees before it locks to be sure both axles are equal speed. As you decelerate harder to 3.0volts(0.5G), 3.7volts(1.2G), 5 degrees or even 20 degrees of steering input can be available. For that amount of degrees, it allows the wheels to be free. Power is free to go to the Front wheels (to pull) or free to go to the Rear(to push). If you Decelerate hard, there is very little weight at the Rear which can make the Rear wheels overpower the Front wheels(sometimes). So the ACD is OPEN longer to reduce Understeer and HOPE power gets delivered to the Rear!!!
On the STOCK Maps Tarmac is more Active then Gravel or Snow. In Gravel or Snow the ACD allows more Slips (Locks less frequently). On the Street, Gravel or Snow will allow the the car to be more Front Wheel Drive because the front tires make a Larger ARC while turning and the rear just drags and follows. Until the ACD starts to lock at 6 degrees or even 40 Degrees, the Rear matches the Front. At times, the Rear can overpower the Front. If the Rear overpowers the front (like with an upgraded REAR DIFF), it will take the same amount of steering degrees Input for the Rear to match the Front.
A Maps are Dominant and the condition will apply Unless B maps or C maps Say other wise.
The manufacture relied more on the A maps
B maps, C maps are limits
ALL other maps are Maximum Limits
For B maps
The B maps have been Throttle input vs Speed(kilometers).
Anything with a ZERO in the plot charts is Full Lock. Anything that is 100 or less is the amount of slip that is allowed.
Example: A Map will make sure the front and rear are equal at a steering Degree input.
B Map can still allow 100% slip AFTER A Map makes sure that both axles Match each others ARC (DELTA). B Map can allow 75% slip or 50% slip or 25% slip or 0% slip(NO SLIP)
If ALLLLL B Map is 0% slip OR FULLY LOCKED, YOU can have BIND also WEIRD and SCARY understeer or oversteer.
100% Slip is needed!!!! At the right time, speed, and condition then you can use 70, 50, 20, 0 slip, and that can be useful.
C map
Its speed vs Steering Degrees. 40 Degree increments.
A Map will do what it needs to do...
C map, if you steer to 40 Degrees or what ever degree is placed, it will allow 100% slip or what ever value is in the Plot.
Example: the row on the far left is "Steering Wheel Centered', then 40 degrees, then 80 degrees, etc.... as you steer away from "center" and approach 40 degrees, on STOCK it has 100% slip.
....OR you can have 50% slip or 10% slip. it can be 0% slip (Fully locked) as you TURN, get a little oversteer. YOU can give it power and then Unwind the steering back to "center".<<<< in the street that is fun
....In Dirt that can give you understeer
....scary
So this is My 401702xml and ACD Map. To use my xml all other 401702xml can not be in the same folder. My 401702xml has to be by it self, even to see my ACD map and to understand my explanation and understanding of the ACD. I have been tuning ACDs for 3 years and tried a lot with and with out Rear Differential upgrades.
I hope we can add as many features as we can with other xmls and sources. Lets have this be as open source as possible and learn from each other. Ill throw some fully tuned roms on here once people can understand the possibilities as this opens up more.
Jan 11, 2014, 07:10 AM
#53
Great stuff Malocas! Unbeelivable!
I Think that kind of explanation are the base for understanding how to use the important tool gived us by Merlin and company.
Merlin:
I'm very happy to find peaple as you all very professional ans intrested in this kind of things.
I'm an ex rally driver but I am not God! I think it could be wonderfull to mix real exeprience with tecnologies and tuners! Just because we all need fan!!!
I think tha a great stuff will be to mix Malocas exeprinece with your xml definition, to improve the tuning power.
Now I'll go out with my Evo to test things read here!
bye
I've made this this kind of test:
First I set the upper pressure limit to 17 bar and logged the pressure value at idle with engine off: it works quite good, but I think the expasion vase ar at limit, I mean it could require a little air pressure more.
Strange thing: At idle, with RA K2 rom, I logged the current valve to ACD, it rise till 1000mA at wot; ok. Same test but with stock evo 8 or evo 9 (as Malocas) and that current rise only to 330mA, why??????
Second test: stock evo8 map with only this silly modify (wide open throttle i'd like non slip at low speed, (in the pict)), the car exit from slow turn is became incredibly understeering!! Why????
I Think that kind of explanation are the base for understanding how to use the important tool gived us by Merlin and company.
Merlin:
I'm very happy to find peaple as you all very professional ans intrested in this kind of things.
I'm an ex rally driver but I am not God! I think it could be wonderfull to mix real exeprience with tecnologies and tuners! Just because we all need fan!!!
I think tha a great stuff will be to mix Malocas exeprinece with your xml definition, to improve the tuning power.
Now I'll go out with my Evo to test things read here!
bye
I've made this this kind of test:
First I set the upper pressure limit to 17 bar and logged the pressure value at idle with engine off: it works quite good, but I think the expasion vase ar at limit, I mean it could require a little air pressure more.
Strange thing: At idle, with RA K2 rom, I logged the current valve to ACD, it rise till 1000mA at wot; ok. Same test but with stock evo 8 or evo 9 (as Malocas) and that current rise only to 330mA, why??????
Second test: stock evo8 map with only this silly modify (wide open throttle i'd like non slip at low speed, (in the pict)), the car exit from slow turn is became incredibly understeering!! Why????
Last edited by Floppyz; Jan 11, 2014 at 10:20 AM.
Jan 11, 2014, 08:06 AM
#54
Evolving Member
Malocas, let me rephrase it to make everything clear for me...
Main maps are A-Maps G-Force vs Speed.
Value determines drivers Steering Degree Input at which ACD locks to some %% needed to equalize axles speeds. So generally it keeps both axles equal at any speed up to 1.9G, then as G rises, ACD is kept open at higher Steering Degrees.
Are you sure that X axis is correct? 4g is a really high number, actually that kind of G-force can be archieved on F1 cars..
B-Maps are Throttle input vs Speed. Value determines slip. Higher number - more diff slip, less lock.
So at 250kph ACD is fully locked??
C-Maps are Steering Degrees vs Speed. Value determines slip. Higher number - more diff slip, less lock.
In stock it keeps diff locked up to 10 kph at any Steering Wheel input, and keeps it fully open at any speeds higher than 40kph.
B and C maps act only after A-maps complete their job - equalize both axles.
Am I right?
Main maps are A-Maps G-Force vs Speed.
Value determines drivers Steering Degree Input at which ACD locks to some %% needed to equalize axles speeds. So generally it keeps both axles equal at any speed up to 1.9G, then as G rises, ACD is kept open at higher Steering Degrees.
Are you sure that X axis is correct? 4g is a really high number, actually that kind of G-force can be archieved on F1 cars..
B-Maps are Throttle input vs Speed. Value determines slip. Higher number - more diff slip, less lock.
So at 250kph ACD is fully locked??
C-Maps are Steering Degrees vs Speed. Value determines slip. Higher number - more diff slip, less lock.
In stock it keeps diff locked up to 10 kph at any Steering Wheel input, and keeps it fully open at any speeds higher than 40kph.
B and C maps act only after A-maps complete their job - equalize both axles.
Am I right?
Jan 11, 2014, 01:15 PM
#56
even more confused
According to merlins most recent defs: Which table(s) if I want my snow map to be heavily locked under any acceleration or intended acceleration. I have a lot of ice / snow on the roads here and I want to tinker tehre first.
I really miss my DCCD controller... much more simple UI lol
According to merlins most recent defs: Which table(s) if I want my snow map to be heavily locked under any acceleration or intended acceleration. I have a lot of ice / snow on the roads here and I want to tinker tehre first.
I really miss my DCCD controller... much more simple UI lol
Last edited by 211Ratsbud; Jan 11, 2014 at 01:31 PM.
Jan 11, 2014, 01:39 PM
#57
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
211, increase the values in the A-Maps for increased lock with throttle.
My best info atm is the A-Maps get multiplied with the B-Maps.
My best info atm is the A-Maps get multiplied with the B-Maps.
Last edited by merlin.oz; Jan 11, 2014 at 01:57 PM.
Jan 11, 2014, 04:56 PM
#60
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
I did not want to comment on Molocas post as I disagree with some of the content.
At the moment, I stand by what I stated on the axis for the ABC maps, and the scalings used in the xmls, eg 1.5G not 4G, steering angle range of 360 degrees with a 2 degree resolution.
I dont think the B and C maps are limits, but rather multiplying factors with a range of zero to one, which is then applied to the A maps.
However, time will (hopefully) provide an answer.
At the moment, I stand by what I stated on the axis for the ABC maps, and the scalings used in the xmls, eg 1.5G not 4G, steering angle range of 360 degrees with a 2 degree resolution.
I dont think the B and C maps are limits, but rather multiplying factors with a range of zero to one, which is then applied to the A maps.
However, time will (hopefully) provide an answer.