IX with FS635 turbo and Buschur Engine using Hydra Standalone making 670 whp on pump
Nov 24, 2008, 02:57 PM
#77
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I have the HYDRA 2.5 but am in Hawaii and don't have anyone to tune it. It has a base tune on it and my car only is an Evo 9 RS with cat-back and Peakboost intercooler. I plugged it in myself and the car idled just like stock, but I wanted to know what I could do about getting a tune. I have had this standalone for a while collecting dust along with my turbokit and would like to find someone that might be able to help.
Nov 24, 2008, 09:03 PM
#78
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I have the HYDRA 2.5 but am in Hawaii and don't have anyone to tune it. It has a base tune on it and my car only is an Evo 9 RS with cat-back and Peakboost intercooler. I plugged it in myself and the car idled just like stock, but I wanted to know what I could do about getting a tune. I have had this standalone for a while collecting dust along with my turbokit and would like to find someone that might be able to help.
I have a couple of other clients out there in need of tuning services, I would be happy to come there for a very reasonable fee to tune it for you but would also suggest that we upgrade it to V 2.6 before we do so.
PM me for details if interested
Al
Nov 25, 2008, 08:13 AM
#79
On a turbo car ideal or stoich is modified due to inneficinecy of the combustion process and the mixing of fuel under boost. As you know we run significantly richer with turbo cars than with N/A. As meth injected cars are running a hybrid fuel (mixed pump and meth) the ideal or Stoich mixture would change due to the combination of the fuel. The way power is made oin a staright alcohol car is by buring more fuel as alcohol has less BTU than gas. Since we use the alcohol as a tuning adie and not as a principle source of energy there is no need to try and gain power by packing in extra fuel as in a alcohol car.
The chemical intercooling effect of the introduction of the meth in a boosted application as well as the knock resistant quality of the meth itself results in a modification of what is an ideal AF for a boosted application. Also buring meth yeilds oxygen which further confuses the calculation.
My experience has shown that a meth injected car with large jets can run significantly LEANER than in straight gas applications and resisit knock more. By running gas leaner on a turbo car (to a point) there is more heat and more energy released and more power.
My testing has shown that running the meth injected car very rich allows the alcohol to cool the combustion process too much and you actually loose power.
I hope this helps explain my theory on this.
The chemical intercooling effect of the introduction of the meth in a boosted application as well as the knock resistant quality of the meth itself results in a modification of what is an ideal AF for a boosted application. Also buring meth yeilds oxygen which further confuses the calculation.
My experience has shown that a meth injected car with large jets can run significantly LEANER than in straight gas applications and resisit knock more. By running gas leaner on a turbo car (to a point) there is more heat and more energy released and more power.
My testing has shown that running the meth injected car very rich allows the alcohol to cool the combustion process too much and you actually loose power.
I hope this helps explain my theory on this.
Nov 25, 2008, 10:41 AM
#80
With gasoline, lean best torque is 13.2, and rich best torque around 12.5. As Al mentioned, both are on the rich side of measured stoich for reasons of inefficiency. Rich best torque means that mixtures richer than 12.5 begin compromising torque (and therefore, power). We generally tune a little richer with turbo motors because the cooling effect of the additional fuel tends to add some safety margin, and the torque curve decreases relatively slowly on the rich side of things.
Now, if you look at resources such as this:
http://www.eco-flex.us/pages/E85_facts.htm
It implies that burning slightly richer mixtures of ethanol or methanol gives best torque. With meth injection, gasoline is still the primary fuel, so the cooling properties of the meth coupled with the octane boost enables one to run leaner ( closer to rich best torque) without issues.
With E85, ethanol is the primary fuel, and the resource shows that running richer than rich best torque for gasoline should yield the best results. However, it is interesting that several here have noted what they claim to be best results running leaner than the lambda value quoted in the web resource above. Now, the O2 contained within the ethanol and methanol molecule as Al noted is taken into account with the O2 measurements (why these fuels have richer stoich balance), so there shouldn't be any issues with O2 sensor readings.
Like so many other things here, it just requires more testing, tuning, and more thought to explain why things appear the way they do. Who knows, maybe it's just that ethanol and methanol burn more efficiently and completely than gasoline.
Now, if you look at resources such as this:
http://www.eco-flex.us/pages/E85_facts.htm
It implies that burning slightly richer mixtures of ethanol or methanol gives best torque. With meth injection, gasoline is still the primary fuel, so the cooling properties of the meth coupled with the octane boost enables one to run leaner ( closer to rich best torque) without issues.
With E85, ethanol is the primary fuel, and the resource shows that running richer than rich best torque for gasoline should yield the best results. However, it is interesting that several here have noted what they claim to be best results running leaner than the lambda value quoted in the web resource above. Now, the O2 contained within the ethanol and methanol molecule as Al noted is taken into account with the O2 measurements (why these fuels have richer stoich balance), so there shouldn't be any issues with O2 sensor readings.
Like so many other things here, it just requires more testing, tuning, and more thought to explain why things appear the way they do. Who knows, maybe it's just that ethanol and methanol burn more efficiently and completely than gasoline.
Last edited by Ted B; Nov 25, 2008 at 10:43 AM.
Nov 26, 2008, 10:34 AM
#81
I think I feel pretty comfortable now if I opt for a meth kit for what lambda to run. I target 12:1 now, .81 lambda. As you said Ted, that article is tending to say the lambda value for rich best power is lower (richer) for ethanol than gasoline. But I'm going to ignore that I think,
.. and since meth is not my primary fuel, and given Al and your advice, I think I will keep targetting .81 lambda if I spray meth and maybe even try going a bit leaner and see what results I get.But if I only listened to that article, I think it is safe to say I'd want to target a lambda richer than my gas only target of .81.
Nov 26, 2008, 10:54 AM
#82
Found this funny quote from a thread Al started last year:
http://buschurforums.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=18317
This guy Larry/HotRod gave a good explaination on the water injection forum of AFR:
"In order for a fuel molecule to burn it must be both hot enough and have oxygen molecues available at the right time. In a stoichimetric mixture its like you have exactly enough men and women at a party to pair everyone up. If you were to suddenly yell -- everyone choose a partner, by random chance some guys would be able to choose from 3 or 4 girls and some guys would not be near any girls. If there is not enough time to mix some guys and some girls will go unpaired. The closer you get to everyone finding a partner the harder it will be for the last few unattached guys to find the last few unattached girls.
A 12.5 :1 fuel air mixture is sort of like a party where the guys outnumber the girls. If your goal was to be sure every girl found a partner this would be the arraingement you want. When you shout eveyone find a partner (fire the spark plug) it would be easy for every girl to find a compatible guy. Some of the guys would go home single but all the girls would be happy.
Nearly all internal combustion engines make their max power rich at about 12.5:1. This is 12.5 lbs of air to each lb of fuel. This is a rich mixture that intentionally provides more fuel than can be burned by the available air (sort of like the party with too many guys). This ensures that "ALL" the oxygen (or as close as you can get ) is used up as it is the oxygen used in combustion that limits power. You are willing to leave some fuel unburned to ensure all your oxygen is consumed.
The 14.7:1 ratio or ( stoich ) mixture is 14.7 lbs of air to 1 lb of fuel, and provides enough air to burn "all the fuel". If time and condtions allow it.
In a stoichiometric mixture you should have nearly no fuel and no oxygen left after combustion. The problem with that, matching up all the oxygen with all the fuel takes some time. The last few couples take a while to find each other.
Mixtures that lean also burn too hot for most engines to make maximum power with. More of the burning process still continues in the exhaust manifold and as the exhaust passes the valve. This cooks the valve and causes very high EGT's.
Most engines can continue to make more power as you lean them out past 12.5:1 until you get to about 13.2:1 or so, but max power lean is very dangerous and very prone to detonation due to the high combustion temperatures. By running WI you can tune into that 13:1 max power range without melting the engine and without breaking it due to detonation.
This is highly simplified as other issues are involved, but engine temps, detonation and using all the available oxygen are the primary factors in producing maximum power.
Larry"
"In order for a fuel molecule to burn it must be both hot enough and have oxygen molecues available at the right time. In a stoichimetric mixture its like you have exactly enough men and women at a party to pair everyone up. If you were to suddenly yell -- everyone choose a partner, by random chance some guys would be able to choose from 3 or 4 girls and some guys would not be near any girls. If there is not enough time to mix some guys and some girls will go unpaired. The closer you get to everyone finding a partner the harder it will be for the last few unattached guys to find the last few unattached girls.
A 12.5 :1 fuel air mixture is sort of like a party where the guys outnumber the girls. If your goal was to be sure every girl found a partner this would be the arraingement you want. When you shout eveyone find a partner (fire the spark plug) it would be easy for every girl to find a compatible guy. Some of the guys would go home single but all the girls would be happy.
Nearly all internal combustion engines make their max power rich at about 12.5:1. This is 12.5 lbs of air to each lb of fuel. This is a rich mixture that intentionally provides more fuel than can be burned by the available air (sort of like the party with too many guys). This ensures that "ALL" the oxygen (or as close as you can get ) is used up as it is the oxygen used in combustion that limits power. You are willing to leave some fuel unburned to ensure all your oxygen is consumed.
The 14.7:1 ratio or ( stoich ) mixture is 14.7 lbs of air to 1 lb of fuel, and provides enough air to burn "all the fuel". If time and condtions allow it.
In a stoichiometric mixture you should have nearly no fuel and no oxygen left after combustion. The problem with that, matching up all the oxygen with all the fuel takes some time. The last few couples take a while to find each other.
Mixtures that lean also burn too hot for most engines to make maximum power with. More of the burning process still continues in the exhaust manifold and as the exhaust passes the valve. This cooks the valve and causes very high EGT's.
Most engines can continue to make more power as you lean them out past 12.5:1 until you get to about 13.2:1 or so, but max power lean is very dangerous and very prone to detonation due to the high combustion temperatures. By running WI you can tune into that 13:1 max power range without melting the engine and without breaking it due to detonation.
This is highly simplified as other issues are involved, but engine temps, detonation and using all the available oxygen are the primary factors in producing maximum power.
Larry"
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