d-bo

iTrader: (14)

Should be safe to say it'll do well over 150trap with 800+ right ?
I should do a VD pull with my car to see what it makes.

tscompusa

iTrader: (31)

Thanks wizzo!

They are different, but they are identical in regards to everything except its 6mm taller. You do understand a 2.4 standard bore 86.5mm is a 4g63 with a overbore of 60 right?

Plenty of machine shops I know sonic tested and have identified material differences in between both blocks.

A 87mm bore in a 4g64 is identical to a 87mm bore in a 4g63. They both would have identical material inbetween the cyl's and as scary as it sounds yes 87mm is equiv to a 80 over 4g63 minus the obvious indifference's. They both would use the same 87mm HG.

You have to remember the 4g64 is a non turbo block. It was never built to really need to handle boost because it was never produced with a turbo car. This is why they come so bored out at 86.5mm. Because of this big bore you sacrifice a lot of headgasket sealing surface.

What you said though is very important. Orings make a world of difference. My head is oringed so that is a plus for me. Ill play with it on the street and go from there.

I have a brand new 4g63 in my garage, and some 4g64 stock bore if you want ill put a mic or digital caliper to the bores and show you how much difference there is.

Id say at least 148.

SiriusEvo

Thanks for thr explanation but you basically told me info that is already available.

What I do know is that you can run over 40psi safely and reliably on a 64 block as long as the prep is done correctly. This has been proven time and time again. And let's be honest, boost is relative. We should be more concerned with cylinder pressure.

Like I said above, the material thickness in between cylinders is not a concern to me. The difference is marginal. Plenty of other applications make just as much/if not more power with less

I hope I'm not coming off the wrong way, don't want to sound like that.

At the end of the day, IMO if you want 1000hp I would look into a 2JZ or LS or other larger displacement variant it will last much longer.

tscompusa

iTrader: (31)

The difference is not marginal that's all I'm saying. Its very different & it can eventually create headgasket issues even with perfect prep and a spot on tune. It just happens over time the wear & tear from not having enough sealing surface puts your fire rings of the HG to close to the combustion chambers because of the lack of block surface to separate it. One little misfire and you can compromise the hg. I just got lucky my HG wasn't compromised after 2-3 pulls misfiring due to the alternator failing on me. And that did push coolant and pop the reservoir cap, which has never happened to me in my life on a 4g63 pushing them to hell and back blowing turbos, etc for years on end. That's another reason I lost a little bit of faith in it already. But I understand thats a rare thing to occur. Alternators don't die often, so im past that point now already.

I have a 40 over and 20 over 4g63 in my garage right now. Im gonna put the pic here to show you. Now we both know a 40 over 4g63 is 86mm. Theres still a full mm to go until we reach a 20 over 4g64 block! Look how thin that surface area got!



In regards to prep, yes thats critical no matter what. I know boost is relative to parts combination. I know at the end of the day cyl pressure is our enemy also when it comes to headgasket related stuff.

at 40psi with my car holding solid to redline granted no restrictions appear vs the 810, it should make something like 870whp assuming the setup is efficient up to that boost pressure as it was at 36psi. (peak HP)

I just cant see something like this holding up HG wise with that much material lost inbetween the cyl's. one nasty misfire could compromise the HG where as, on a 4g63 it would just brush it off and not affect it. Im gonna push it just to see, but my gut tells me it is gonna prematurely wear over time. Theres just not enough block material there. The oringed head I have will certainly prolongue the life though which we both agree with.

Im looking at the situation as a long term solution, which isnt really possible with this kind of material to work with inbetween the bores & lots of power.

I do think if it was kept at 752 / 620tq which was around 32psi it would go for a long long time without any kind of issue. pushing up into the 40's im skeptical.


5leepers car non oringed started to run into issues. He used to slowly push coolant after the HG had around 2000 miles on it. (non oringed). Then from there under lots of abuse it slowly filled the coolant reservoir, but never killed the HG. Just compromised it enough to push coolant. After he switched to a oring head he hasnt pushed yet, and is running more boost then he has ever done before. Orings definitely help a lot, atleast they did on his car. His car and my car are similar, but mine is a little more efficient then his is.

I hope i can push this thing without issues that will be great. So far it has been issue free minus the alternator failing on me.

I'll upgrade the ignition and go from there. Gonna get some videos of it pulling 3rd hopefully this week. If weather is good i am gonna take it to the track Saturday.

5LEEPERISAH23I

iTrader: (23)

Tom my non-ringed HG would fail around 1,100-1,200 miles @ 34PSI-36PSI every time. Currently with my o-ring head. The HG currently has 1,600-1,800 miles 40 PSI not pushing legit a drop. So we can say the o-ring head help FOR SURE! Anyone on here that says it doesnt matter or that is not true i bet havnt done back to back testing like me and Tom. The question is how much longer it will last tho?

SiriusEvo

I agree 100% Tom.

FWIW. .here is a pic of a BMW S52 motor with a figure-8 oring setup.

Now that is sketchy right? But it works.

NSDQ

iTrader: (1)

I'm glad I checked in on this thread. I'm certainly going to keep my boost under 40psi. I'm at 27ish right now peak and likely won't go much past 35, maybe 38 tops once I upgrade my fuel setup. Before my car went to Fathouse, I suspected HG issues. If the car sat and idled for a while after being driven, temp gauge would shoot up. Also had coolant in the reservoir. This came after I missed a shift at the track when I went to shift into third, didn't engage clutch enough and got lockout, but anticipating the shift I hit the gas but was in neutral and now at WOT and revved to 9k. Temp gauge shot up immediately and the car shut off. I let it roll to the end and off to the side. Got out and check for and fluid leaks, saw nothing. Cranked the car and it fired up and I drove home with no issues, or so I thought. Actually drove the car for a couple more months with really no issues other than not building much boost and some starting issues that existed prior to the missed shift. Took car to Fathouse in September and voila there was damage. Thankfully, HG was only leaking and not blown out. But valve seals and some of the valves were jacked up, likely from the over rev. They didn't o-ring the block but we did go with a special order Cometic HG that English Racing swears by and use on all their 64 builds, so hopefully this one is good to go and I don't miss more shifts lol. I say all this because as TSComp said, with more surface material the missed shift might have resulted in nothing more than a missed shift and hurt pride. In my case, with the standard off-the-shelf Cometic, it did damage. Thankfully minor damage although $600 labor +parts for a HG swap is nothing to bat an eye at lol.

5LEEPERISAH23I

iTrader: (23)

I tired that Head gasket. If you do not have a o-ringed head or block you will have problems again, im positive. I tired 3 different kinds/brand head gaskets. You will push coolant again just keep an eye on it so it doesn't happen down the track or anything.

NSDQ

iTrader: (1)

Well damn. How much does O-ringing the block normally cost? I have a oil analysis test kit coming as I'm about to switch out my oil for 5-30 for the winter and will take a sample to send off. I'm going to do this every oil change in addition to looking for the obvious signs.

tscompusa

iTrader: (31)

I just googled a picture of it. that is crazy looking! I bet you those guys think we are crazy for what were doing also with 4 cyl's.

That Headgasket is just a regular off the shelf Cometic. Might of been one time Cometic made it based on English racings feedback, but now its off the shelf. Thats how a lot of products tend to go after a shop helps make it, they go available to the public.

The Cometic lasted as long as the cosworth didn't it Steve? 1k+ miles. and cost WAY less.

NSDQ id just o-ring the head. Oringing the block would require removing it. I wouldn't go through all that hassle. Id run it as is for now, if you push later then oring it. Just keep an eye on your reservoir.

tscompusa

iTrader: (31)

what bearings are you using do you know? be careful when changing your oil with a built engine. If you're using ACL race with a manley rod & OEM or manley crank you're looking at a pretty big clearance in the rod bearings with just STD size bearings, i wouldnt run a 5w30 with a big clearance.

If you're not gonna hammer on the car you will probably be ok, but if you hammer on it i wouldnt go to that thin of oil.

are your BS bearings turned?

NSDQ

iTrader: (1)

Yes, running the ACL race bearings and Manley rods. What weight oil would you recommend for winter? It has BP 20-50 right now. Not sure on the BS bearings. Engine was built by previous owner so I just have a parts list from him but nothing more than that.

SiriusEvo

I would go with a good full synthetic 10w-30/40 for winter in your case. At the end of the day you need to monitor your oil pressure. If is is still in spec with the 10w-30 then go for it.

Grimgrak

iTrader: (3)

Eneos 5w40 for me.

tscompusa

iTrader: (31)

BP is a partial synthetic. I just run it all year round for now at 20w50. The coldest I take it out is around 35-40's though.

Ultimately the oil pressure will tell you if its ok or not like mentioned (to thin not enough pressure etc / with BS eliminated you want over 20psi at idle fully warm (Porting Galley + BS elim is around 40psi at idle in my silver car with 20w50 - In the blue if I recall it was closer to 20 ish without porting galley). Porting the oil galley, bs eliminated, all raise oil pressure higher, so depending on how good the flow is determines whats ok and not ok. Of course you need a gauge for that though with these cars.

If were talking like 15F and colder you're gonna be driving your car then yes get the 20w50 out of there.

Keep in mind the first number of viscosity stands for "Winter" not weight.

For the winter you drop the number down so it can cold start safe with minimal wear.

All the above mentioned can work depending on how cold it really gets. The colder the oil is, the thicker it will be.

On another note. I didn't get a chance to get the car to track yet or run it since. Been doing customer work. I did contact sparktech about the Drag 2 pro CDI though.