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Stock Block FP Red (SS) Kelford 272 93oct 28psi (3port vs MBC comparison inside)
First we tuned John's car with a MBC only. While not being able to have any control over the real time boost curve, I was quick to recommend the 3 port and to modify the pump to get more flow. So we took this opportunity to do a comparison between the two methods of boost control.
Mods on car:
Evo 8 SSL /w stock engine 125K
FP Red (SS Housing and FP install kit)
FP o2 housing
DC sport 3" downpipe
Buschur 3" SD Exhaust
Buschur ported and polished mani
Buschur upper and lower piping
Buschur street core fmic
Tial Q Bov
Tial MV-S Wastegate
3" sd intake
Kelford 272
Arp head studs
ID 1000cc (94% idc)
Walbro 255 modified
Tephra v7 Speed density /w ecuboost
Graph below of final tune with 3 port:
Graph comparison MBC vs 3 port: (With explanation below)
With the MBC, all we were able to do is turn the knob up or down. The base wastegate pressure being the minimal. With a stock block this tends to be dangerous. The MBC only globally raises your entire boost target and has no control through the RPM curve. If you want to make power on the MBC the only means of torque management is timing, which will only get you so far.
Now with a 3 port, We have the ability to add/remove WGDC by percentage vs RPM. So in this vehicles case, We ran lower boost at lower RPM to manage the torque (physically impossible with a mbc), Then we ramped the wgdc on the top end to extract the horsepower while not increasing torque to high, keeping the stock engine happy and safe.
End result was an additional +38WHP and +32WTQ while still keeping a LOWER peak torque of just 388WTQ in this graphs case vs the MBC @ 405WTQ.
Nice work as always Tom. Those are impressive numbers for basically a 54/58 setup with the ss housing. I've been waiting on more results from the red/ss housing. Having less backpressure makes it alot easier to make power but its a tradeoff for lowend and transient response over the MHI housing.
Do you have any Red/ss results on a built block? It would be interesting if its still turbine wheel limited or if it can go past 7800-8000 and continue to make power.
FP continues to deliver for bolt on stuff in either configuration.
Spoolup doesn't even look too bad. It sees 20psi aonly about 250-300rpm later than my car. Good results. Would like to see it on a dynojet. See how close those VD numbers are.
im going to have a similar setup except with hks 272 and no speed density and ecu and im told ill make close to 400 does the ecu and speed density make up that much of a difference?
Nice work as always Tom. Those are impressive numbers for basically a 54/58 setup with the ss housing. I've been waiting on more results from the red/ss housing. Having less backpressure makes it alot easier to make power but its a tradeoff for lowend and transient response over the MHI housing.
Do you have any Red/ss results on a built block? It would be interesting if its still turbine wheel limited or if it can go past 7800-8000 and continue to make power.
FP continues to deliver for bolt on stuff in either configuration.
Thank you!
I unfortunately don't think I do or cant find anything on my computer.
I do remember tuning a FP Red with MHI housing though over 600, so I think you can expect 650~ with a really good parts combination.
I would say you can definitely carry the power out over 8000 with the right bolt on's and the single scroll design hotside.
I recall also making a SS green 73hta go around 135 in 1/4 it was over 3200lb with driver so if a green can do that, The red is going to really move.
The SS housing I think is great, especially for stock block guys since we can really limit the torque around.
If you're a hard core auto-xer or road course im not sure if I would recommend SS over MHI, because MHI will have night and day response time vs SS housing. Something the graph wont really pickup.
Kind of like when you go from JB turbo to BB the transient response / recovery time is incredibly different but a power graph wont ever show it.
If it was me, and I was more all around oriented, (road course, strip, etc) I would probably just go FP Black. FP Black is still one of my most favorite bolt on turbos to this day. You can have a very deep 600whp car and with reliability as well and decent response.
If you don't mind sacrificing 50-70WHP for the spool then the Red is definitely the ticket.
Originally Posted by letsgetthisdone
Spoolup doesn't even look too bad. It sees 20psi aonly about 250-300rpm later than my car. Good results. Would like to see it on a dynojet. See how close those VD numbers are.
It must have good parts that work well together. At the end of the day the parts are what restrict me from being able to do what is possible. I just feed the car the proper values and it does the rest for me. That and fuel. Good parts and good fuel = happy tune(r).
Originally Posted by Pal215
Pink valve covers increase spool, decrease knock, and add about 97.6 lbft of torque.
Ya I think the color was done to be different. id say that's been more then accomplished. Id prefer to see something like an army green in there to match the camo coolant hose.
Originally Posted by tbaird58
im going to have a similar setup except with hks 272 and no speed density and ecu and im told ill make close to 400 does the ecu and speed density make up that much of a difference?
The cams will hold the car back. So will sucking air through a MAF screen and limited restricted inlet opening. If they are recommending the MAF over SD it tells me they are not knowledgeable enough to do the job properly.
I unfortunately don't think I do or cant find anything on my computer.
I do remember tuning a FP Red with MHI housing though over 600, so I think you can expect 650~ with a really good parts combination.
I would say you can definitely carry the power out over 8000 with the right bolt on's and the single scroll design hotside.
I recall also making a SS green 73hta go around 135 in 1/4 it was over 3200lb with driver so if a green can do that, The red is going to really move.
The SS housing I think is great, especially for stock block guys since we can really limit the torque around.
If you're a hard core auto-xer or road course im not sure if I would recommend SS over MHI, because MHI will have night and day response time vs SS housing. Something the graph wont really pickup.
Kind of like when you go from JB turbo to BB the transient response / recovery time is incredibly different but a power graph wont ever show it.
If it was me, and I was more all around oriented, (road course, strip, etc) I would probably just go FP Black. FP Black is still one of my most favorite bolt on turbos to this day. You can have a very deep 600whp car and with reliability as well and decent response.
If you don't mind sacrificing 50-70WHP for the spool then the Red is definitely the ticket.
It must have good parts that work well together. At the end of the day the parts are what restrict me from being able to do what is possible. I just feed the car the proper values and it does the rest for me. That and fuel. Good parts and good fuel = happy tune(r).
Ya I think the color was done to be different. id say that's been more then accomplished. Id prefer to see something like an army green in there to match the camo coolant hose.
The cams will hold the car back. So will sucking air through a MAF screen and limited restricted inlet opening. If they are recommending the MAF over SD it tells me they are not knowledgeable enough to do the job properly.
I want to stay in the maf for the time being for amog reason and I know the cams are a bit mild, just amazed at the numbers. If I can't get to 400 I will most likely move up to gsc s2's and upgrade the valve train
Stopped out to john's house as he offered to help me iron out a few items on my car. Went out for a ride, and I was surprised at how quick this car really is. And it runs rock solid.
So nobody wants to pick up on why the "MBC Only" has a +65lb weight difference?
Or maybe why the blue line on the top graph still drops off boost above 7k yet it still nets the same HP?
Dare we ask about timing differences?
I understand the advantages of running a 3 port. I feel that this "comparison" is great however I believe there are a lot of unanswered questions. I would not take this at "face-value". My opinion.
So nobody wants to pick up on why the "MBC Only" has a +65lb weight difference?
Or maybe why the blue line on the top graph still drops off boost above 7k yet it still nets the same HP?
Dare we ask about timing differences?
I understand the advantages of running a 3 port. I feel that this "comparison" is great however I believe there are a lot of unanswered questions. I would not take this at "face-value". My opinion.
Even external gates most the time drop boost at higher RPM. demanding more boost at higher RPM with 3 port eliminates that loss.
No timing changes. Just boost control we were able to demand more airflow at higher RPM out of the turbo.
65lb weight is 6whp about only. John had different passengers. I'll let him respond if he wants.
Car went 11.28 @ 126 last week in much hotter temps then tuning (i think 40F hotter so subtract 40whp from the 3 port numbers). I cant update every graph with results but since this one was bumped I will.
The first graph shows a different curve due to the evoscan being dumb.
Even external gates most the time drop boost at higher RPM. demanding more boost at higher RPM with 3 port eliminates that loss.
No timing changes. Just boost control we were able to demand more airflow at higher RPM out of the turbo.
65lb weight is 6whp about only. John had different passengers. I'll let him respond if he wants.
Car went 11.28 @ 126 last week in much hotter temps then tuning (i think 40F hotter so subtract 40whp from the 3 port numbers). I cant update every graph with results but since this one was bumped I will.
The first graph shows a different curve due to the evoscan being dumb.
i did have different people helping me tune the car on the hallman and 3 port tunes. I'm not quite sure the argument here as the 3 port netted me the numbers I was looking for which was over 500 on a vd while still keeping the tq down on a block that as far as I know has 125k on it. I'm sure many people like the hallman curve more then the 3 port because of the extra tq and the way the power comes on but being able to add and lower the boost with the 3 port throughout the entire rpm band helped me bet the number and reliability I was looking for. I did run the 11.28 @ 126 on street tires with I believe was a 1.7x 60'. This is a very simple and proven setup. Still on pump gas, a little Wally 255 and id1000s go a long way. If there are any other questions I'd be more then happy to answer to my best ability
car was tuned at 40* outside and is now in the 80* as well
Apr 17, 2017, 09:53 PM
Id prefer to see something like an army green in there to match the camo coolant hose.
