I am wondering some of the reputable tuners in the USA are using MBCs to tune the EVO IX - especially when using Ecutek which is (as far as I know) able to control the boost? (I believe that Precision tuning uses Ecutek and uses a MBC)

I would really appreciate it if someone in the know would enlighten me. There are some very reputable tuners in the UK that do not use MBC when tuning with Ecutek so what is the deal?

 

From my experience with a ton of EBCs:

MBC offer simplicity and consistant results which makes tuning the car a much simpler task.

 

so what about a electronic boost controller like the blitz i-color

would that be hard to tune?

 

Bakari, I don't think he asked about EBCs. I believe the question is..."why do US tuners rely on an MBC to control boost when using EcuTek to tune, because UK tuners who use EcuTek rely on the built-in boost-controlling abilities of the flash."

Well, from what I've seen, it appears that the IX ECU is very smart and tries to lower the boost whenever the stock BCS is still in use and increased airflow is sensed. EcuTek may be able to control boost to some degree, but I don't think it provides as much peak boost with the same limited taper on an IX. To even begin to get more boost than stock, tuners are having to modify the boost hoses/pills/restrictors/etc, so it just seems much easier to get reliable, higher boost with an MBC. Since it's only an $85 part that allows for easy adjustment, there's really no reason to do otherwise. If you rely on the flash to control the boost, the stock ECU still gets to interfere, and the user has no control over boost whatsoever, which is annoying.

 

if you wanna spend all that money, the SBC-i is like $900. A MBC works fine and its less to go wrong, ya know?

 

Thats fair enough EBC are very exspensive but the reason I got one was so I could have 2 boost settings one for everyday driving and one for racing.
But know I am stuck for cash and I am thinking of selling my avc-r.
I dont know what to do I might just run the car onstandard boost with my power fc or get a mbc.
So Warr what do you do for everyday driving would you adjust the mbc or just leave it at the one setting.

 

Good explanation. I will ask the shop to see what they do to take care of the boost taper problem. While you are on board, can you also let me know what you think about my part pick fro EVO IX (JDM)

walbro
e-bay o2 housing
HKS downpipe
test pipe
HKS Silent

I know that you think HKS is not worth the money, but I live overseas and it is hard for me to get anything else for the big parts as it will be a hassle to try to bring them in myself. Thanks in advance!

 

You could also get 2 MBC's and mount them side by side, $50 each(Dejon Tool mbc). Set them once, swap hoses...

It's easier to mark the knob and keep notes on your 2 settings with one mbc. Not a big deal imo.

 

My take on this FWIW is that tuners tend to stick with what they know works ...

A MBC is an easy and cheap solution that works and tuners have become very comfortable with them on the Evo. Before EcuTek (which is new to the Evo as of Fall '05 right?), there was no option that I'm aware of to alter the stock boost tables in the ECU, so the only options were MBC or EBC. Of those two, we all know that EBCs are ridiculously expensive and perform equal to or worse than an MBC in most cases, so MBC was the obvious choice.

Now that EcuTek is around, I think we will see more people using it to control boost ... and here's why ...

MBC is great but it has some well known problems:

- since load is different in every gear, you can't set at target boost in each gear. For me with my MBC, if I set 20lbs in 3rd, I hit maybe 21lbs in 4th, 22lbs in 5th, and maybe 23lbs in 6th. This is clearly dangerous. The only solution is to set it lower so that I never peak over 21lbs or so, but then I don't make good boost in the lower gears. This really sucks in my opinion.

- it's not capable of adjusting to ambient temps ...

- it's not capable of learning how to control the boost spike ...

I believe the stock ECU, since *it was designed to control boost* is far superior to the MBC with respect to the above 3 points.

With the ECU controlling boost, you simply give it boost targets and it adjusts for temps, load, and may even have some learning features that allow it to better control the initial spike.

There are two downsides to the ECU controlling boost in my opinion:

- no adjustability by end user (major problem and show stopper for some). You always have to run the boost at which you were tuned

- in order to hit a target boost higher than 20-21ish lbs of boost (somewhere around there ...), you have to modify the stock vacuum lines by messing with the restrictor pills or putting a bleeder or something of that sort. This really isn't a huge deal, but it's something additional that has to be done so can be seen as a negative.

With respect to the taper issue ... I'm not aware of any data that shows that the ECU can't be tuned to control the taper as much as the MBC. However, it's important to note that in general, the taper *is a good and natural thing* that happens to keep the turbo in it's efficiency range. People always talk about trying to hold boost flat out to redline, but you have to keep in mind this isn't always a good thing if you care about your turbo and your motor.

Of course it should also be noted that ECU controlling boost is much more warranty friendly ... having an MBC in your engine bay is pretty much an immediate warranty voider ... (not like the cars really have much of a warranty anyway, but the point has to be made).

So that's my long winded opinion:

ECU controlling boost is truly better in my opinion, but doesn't allow end user adjustability and still requires messing with the vacuum lines if you want to reach higher boost targets ...

flame away :-)

 

No, I don't believe EcuTek just because available recently. It's been around for several years, or at least before I bought mine in Oct of 04.

Bosshog, your mods are fine, but I would say to add the MBC for sure, and if you can get a Dynoflash, do that, but if it's cheaper/easier to get Ecutek flashed where you live, then that's perfectly fine, too.

- Don't really need the fuel pump, but won't hurt to add it
- If you get the o2, might as well get a ported/coated stock manifold and ported/coated 10.5hotside unless again it's tough to get stuff to/from Buschur (or you could do it at a shop more local to you)
- The HKS parts are fine, except for maybe the DP if it's only 2.5", but that's not the end of the world
- LICP would be nice, inexpensive, and very helpful (especially instead of buying an intake like you already decided)

There's not much else to mess with yet until the cam situation is totally figured out, which may be soon.

 

It's an interesting topic.

It's amusing to note that even Al seems to waver his opinion on this one with respect to the IX.

First I was told MBC is the best and only solution, then Al posts up that he can now control boost with his flash and THAT is the superior solution for the IX. Then in person, he tells me the MBC is really better. Now, he recently posted a recommendation for an EBC to control boost on the IX ...

worthy of further investigation and research I believe ....

 

I guess they are still trying to figure things out about tuning the IX with Ecutek adn having good boost control as we speak. Thanks for all your input though!

I will also make sure to ask the guy who will tune my car about this tomorrow when I meet him. Last week he tuned one of his friends EVO IX with HKS RS Intake, HKS Headers, Megan O2, HKS Downpipe, test pipe and HKS Hi-Power. I understand that taking the base line run as 280HP at the motor, they got to car to make an additional 118HP (including the fudge factor - so around a 40% increase over base) They later tuned it down for safety, so the gain was around 100HP at the motor. I will get to drive that car tomorrow and may get to see the dyno charts as well...

 

Um, I'd be highly skeptical of these numbers. You didn't once mention WHP and your'e going with the assumption that the Evo IX really has 280HP to the crank, which we know it does not. Your last claim is that it gained 100hp at the MOTOR? Did they take it out and dyno it on an engine dyno? Could you clarify all of this?

This is how it works:

1) Dyno car stock to get baseline
2) Add mods
3) Dyno car with mods

3 - 1 = Gain with mods TO THE WHEELS (only useful comparison).

Btw, wtf is a fudge factor in terms of dyno'ing?

 

Warrtalon,

I though about sending my ECU to the States to get Dynoflash. Although the Dynoflash will be (much) cheaper than getting it tuned locally, if I encounter any problems, the downtime would kill me. The guy who will do the tuning has only limited experience (around 15 Evos - 3 with over 550HP w/t Motec). The good thing is he lives nearby, races his own car professionally and learned to tune from Mike @ Extreme UK. We will first tune the car on the dyno, than test/fine tune it on the road. He said that if I have any problems, he can help me anytime...

I would love to get a ported/coated stock manifold and 10.5hotside, but again it would probably be too expensive and take too long to sent parts to the US and back. Dealing with customs would also be a ***** - and if I outsource it, it costs an arm and a leg (the shop wanted USD 315 for a megan o2 - I got the e-bay part for 98USD shipped to florida and will get a relative to bring it back)

With regards to the LICP, do you know which ones would fit the IX? I will ask the shop if I can just get the LICP from the HKS pipe kit seperately (he sells them as a kit). If I can afford it, I will get it. I might just have to wait till later and get a Bushur or AMS kit from the States if I can figure out a way though...

 

they did:

They measured the car stock (say for sake of ease it was 200ATW), so they multiply the WHP measured after the parts and tuning with 280/200 to get the HP at the motor. So on a low measuring dyno like Bushurs, this would be around 100HP * 200/280 = 71WHP gain after parts and tuning. Does not seem very unreasonable to me with all those parts.

Anyways, too much math and not enough info. I will go to the shop tomorrow morning (that will be 3am EST time for you guys) and will drive the car, see the owner, tuner and hopefully the dyno sheets. I will hopefully have more info tomorrow.

On another note, I dont know how much HP my stock EVO IX has, but it has no problem keeping up with my friends M3 with 340HP and that is on the straights. On the curves, I eat him up coming out of the corner...