According to DynoFlash, there is a big variance of 60whp on stock cars (200whp to 260whp) which got me curious. What causes this variance? A difference of around 60whp is a lot (I'd be pissed if my car was a slow EVO). Anyone have any ideas?

The reason I ask is when the variance is caused by a boost leak (or any kind of leak), or different boost level, I wouldn't be so worried or discouraged since it can be fixed, but if it's caused by uncorrectable causes and I had the slow 200-210whp EVO, I might as well sell it and look for a higher HP evo somehow rather then spend cash to make it similar to a higher HP evo (since it's potential is greater). I'm sure Al checks if the car is fine before the tune, but I'm so puzzled by the difference in HP...a difference of 10-20 would be ok, but 60?

Let's say you modded your car as much as you can with a stock turbo and you find that a stock car does faster E.T.'s ...wouldn't you be discouraged to mod your car any further?

I'll be visiting DynoFlash to see what my stocker shows...(hopefully in the 240-250 range).

 

dont worry man, every car....no matter make, model,year......are all Different, Heck- My evo feels slow, compared to how my SRT felt, but I think that it is just me.

 

This sis actually a very troubling issue that mitsubishi should address. When mazda just recently discovered, due to enthusiaat testing, that their RX-8 was not making it's claimed power, they offered customers a full return of their $$, or free service for 2 years....I'm getting my car dynoed on the 15th of November, and will be interested to see what kind of power the car is making.


Percy

 

I understand a couple hp difference, heck even 20...but 60? The differences can be because of different breakin procedure, boost leak, boost setting, afr settings, etc...which are all correctable...but to account for 60whp difference after checking the cars out for anything wrong is a bit too much, don't you think?

 

I think the turbo and temp play a big part in our cars. I know the NSX when we had dyno days would be +-30HP and I can see the evo +-30HP due to temp then +-30 due to car. As long as you get at or above the factory HP nothing to worry about. And if you car is a little low do some mods.

 

Al stated that the weaker EVO was dynoed later that evening when the temps were even colder...

 

I hope mitsu gets ripped on this one, I really feel they rushed this car... Look at subaru they are recalling the STi's ecu's at least they fess up to big mistakes

 

I wonder if the weak EVO's might have a problem with the flapper valve in the stock muffler. You woud think that carbon, etc might prevent the flapper from working on some cars. This would not account for the especially strong EVO but it could explain some of the variance. Another theory on weak EVO's would be an ECU that was especially conservative regarding timing & boost after a previous experience with poor gas. The ECU learning function might be holding it back - in other words it was good at learning bad things but bad at learning the potential improvements when fuel or atmospheric conditions were better.

 

Is the power deficiency in the weak EVOs remedied when they are tuned? Will a weak one come out of a Dynoflash tuning session about the same as a strong one does?

 

We have been dyno testing stock evos since they first came out in March - on various types of dynos and driving them on different drag tracks to see the times.

No matter what the tempurature or other conditions - the variance is a contsant.

There is no mechanical misfunction or error which accounts for these variations.

A fellow Evo tuner - Shiv at Vishnu also identified similar variances when he initially started tuning evos and there was a lot of talk of some mystery ailment. Nothing apparently even came out of this.

My personal theory is the variation we are seeing is based upon 3 factors or a combination thereof:

1 - Break in - varying styles of break in leave almost new cars with different levels of mechanical tolerances

2 - Manufacturing tolarances vary. This means that some cars get perfect tolarances and others get slight mismatches

3 - Fuel used - some people are filling up at the same gas stations every day and prob wind up being cheated (at least some of them anyway) by getting 91 octane instead of 93 - or even worse 89 instead of 91. Some stations have leaks in the tanks and water may be present fronm contamination.

Given the super sensitive knock correction in the stock ecu any detonation what so ever will cuase the car to pull massive amounts of timing - thereby reducing the power output by up to 30 whp in certain sectors.

My theories on the causes are just that - theories - there is no conclusive proof WHAT causes the substantial car to car variance.

ONE THING is very clear however - any vendor who makes its living selling standard off the shelf tuning maps through the mail for Evos is taking huge chances with YOUR cars as its like playing Russian Roulete !!

Last night we had a totally stock evo making 229 whp that was detonating so loudly on the STOCK map you could hear it through the walls of the shop and into the office. ANY off the shelf map that got and that guy's car would have resulted in serious engine damage.

Be advised - for whatever reason - Evos have huge variations. Don't "borrow" your pal's SAFC settings and Don't buy agressive tuning maps through the mail.

PS - we do offer a very MILD - Stage REV tune by mail - but it is not designed for peak power - its designed for peak safety and makes only 1/2 the power of the on the dyno Dyno Flash

 

Al, why did you change your screen name?

 

I think we've dyno'd several dozen stock EVOs on our dyno. I have yet to see anything close to a 60whp differential between them. On our DD dyno, the biggest we've seen a 20whp differential between the weakest and strongest running production EVO. These findings have been reported to Mitsubishi and they certainly have seemed to resolve the problem given the consistency I've seen with some of the newer cars.

As for Al's comment regarding audible detonation that could be heard through walls, I have yet to see this. Even in CA with 91 octane and even with detonation microphones, the most I've been able to hear is one or two mild ping before the knock sensor quickly intervenes. If a stock EVO is knocking audibly, I'd say that something is wrong with it. Might want to figure out what is wrong before trying to tune it.

Al, Why is it that you used to sing the praises of off-the-shelf remaps just 2 months ago and now, after starting your business, you find them to be so undesireable and dangerous? Seems like a lot of your opinions and loyalties have changed lately

Cheers,
shiv

 

The variances we are seeing on the Dyno jet are what has rolled in. In light of your obsevration - in the future - I will keep track of the build dates on the stock evos and see if any particular pattern emerges.

IF you throw out the highest TWO stock cars the have tested - 263 and 260 even - - and you throw out the two lowest ones - 210 and 215 - Then - all the rest range between 220 to 250 which is certainly a much tighter group.

I have dynoed an amazing amount of stock evos in the past few weeks and the results speak for themselves. In eveny case the base lines were done with the same exact methods and in every case the owner is there to verify our results.

As for the one car that made the big detonation - it was a very unique situation indeed which may require additional invstigation in the form of mechanical testing which we do not do as part of our service. We were able to compeletely elminate ANY detionation what so ever from that car when it left the shop - AND add almost 20 whp in the process.

You are right - most of the time the detaonation is bearly audible if at all and we see it with out knock meters and in the dyno sheet. The stock ecu is very good at picking that knock activity up and tuning it out quickly.

BTW - Shiv - WHAT do you think has done to resolve the problem as of late - becuase my reflasher shows me that ALL 2003 Evos have the same exact program installed in the cu and from what I was told most of the cars were built a long time ago - I was not aware of any mid year revisions. Maybe you can enlighten us all?

Finally - when I was using the reflash of another company as a customer - I found the process so amazing thats why i bought a machine and started tuning cars. In my case - I was still tuning it with my emanage to match my car and that way it worked perfectly. Now that I am focused on tuning more stock evos - I have realized how foolish and risky offering performance tunes off the shelf is on these cars.

I can tell you only this - it certainly would be a LOT more profitable for me to be simply selling flashes through the mail and pocketing all the revenus as profits - than paying big $$ for dyno time week after week to tune all these cars one at a time.

Obviously, you are following the same direction hence your famous dyno days.

 

One additional point I'd like to make - as far as the piost dyno flashed evos - they ALL are within 10 - 15 whp of each other - a much less variance than the ones we start with (with the exception of two high number cars 274 and 287.5) ALL the flashed evos are at 250 whp or more when they are done

 

I was thinking the same thing..but was just keeping it to myself I remember the huge praise of the Works reflash and how it was used in his own car...and that was a mail order reflash. Before, the Works reflash was the best ever..now it's garbage? Just stating my similar observation
The Dynoflash with a custom tune is no doubt one of the best ways to go. The Xede with a custom dyno tune is also a good way to go. I love re-flashes...I have a programmable/reflashed ecu in my 600hp 5.0 Mustang.
I think Al's explanation of hp variances are probably correct. Logically thinking.
Al, what is the max boost your reflash has without the aid of an mbc/ebc? I am still looking at my options for something with integrated boost control...it has come down to either Dynoflash, Xede, or Utec.