Dave-

I love the muffler delete - I scare Euro's with it every day

I need to make a thread turn here - It's my thread afterall
Would you say that a 1) DP (which retains the factory cat converter) (or) a 2) "test pipe" or "high flow cat converter" would make more hp - all other things being equal...

If I go with a 3" DP that removes the cat converter ($300) plus the cost of a cat back exhaust ($450) - lets say that the DP makes 8whp. The cat back exhaust makes 10whp. = 18hwp.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But, my muffler delete is making the same hp as a 2.5" cat back exhaust is making and is right up there with any 3" (all in spent $160).

The biggest restriction in the turbo back exhaust is arguably the cat converter. The stock DP flows pretty well in comparison to an aftermarket DP ($300 plus). Why not just leave the stock DP and add a TEST PIPE ($50) to see comparable gains made by any aftermarket turbo back??? Less "bling-bling" but I'm not sticking my head under the car to care about looks...

Please advise... (oh, this line of reasoning factors the retention of the stock turbo)..

4-BNGR

 

bad post...

 

Putting in an offroad pipe will probably gain as much hp as adding an aftermarket downpipe and leaving the stock cat.

Using an offroad pipe with the muffler delete pipe is probably going to sound LOUD though. Maybe using an axle back and an offroad pipe would be better. I guess the noise isn't an issue with the offroad pipe since I know you are ALL only using these offroad pipes at the track.

Thanks for the support on the manufacturing issue.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

Are you saying that the same aftermarket manufacturer charges less for a domestic application than they do for an import application? Or is it that the Asian aftermarket manufacturers charge more than the domestic aftermarket manufacturers?

 

If you're deleting any cats make sure you hold on to your stock parts so you can reinstall them if necessary. The EPA is just beginning to really crack down on cat deletion. The whole "off road or race use only" loop hole is coming to an end. Many distributors have recently recieved a warning from the EPA regarding this issue.

If you're not deleting any cats you have nothing to worry about.

If you are deleting cats, hold on to your stock parts just to be safe.

 

I would say BOTH. I own two Mustangs and the parts are by far cheaper to get even if it's by the same manufacturer. For example..a set of TWO headers for a Mustang made by most companies will be cheaper than one header made by the same company for a 4 cyl. application...not necessarily imports..just 4 cyl cars import and domestic.

 

An example I can give would be that for a Ford Focus JBA ceramic coated header it is 589 from Summit. A set of two ceramic coated JBA headers for a 5.0 Mustang from Summit is 599. Nearly the same price. Also, just take a look at what the exhaust manifolds/header setups for the Evo are selling for. Generally 4cyl. applications are costlier for some reason...I guess it's because they sell more for Mustangs, etc. therefore they have to charge more for the products they sell less of to make the same overall profit.

 

I'm dissapointed to hear that but I assure you that not all manufacturers do this.

Regarding Asian vs. domestic aftermarket manufacturers, the JDM stuff is more expensive because their is a certain mystique regarding Japanese products. Kinda like the German stuff had in the 80's. Some of it is justified, some of it isn't. But all of it is expensive!

 

Yes, economies of scale have something to do with it as well.

 

This has been a great thread guys both consumers and Mfgs stating their sides properly. I think this thought by broeli was exactly the feeling I wanted to portray in my posts- This is what Im feeling when I see and help install my buds domestic stuff- I truly hope its not the case but it keeps irking me

 

David-

How 'bout a resonably priced 3" DP from Borla
And thanks for your input...

 

On the subject of headers.

I realize a header for an typical V8 is much larger than a typical 4 cylinder application.

A typical V8 header can have every tube for the primaries bent in one continuos bend in a CNC mandrel bender. This makes assembly very easy. You can at this point simply bolt the header flange to the jig and the collector flange (if there is one) to the other end of the jig. The collectors are pre-built. You then slide each of the primary tubes into place and weld each end. Fairly simple operation.

On a four cylinder turbo header it is not nearly as easy. I have built quite a few headers and let me tell you, the easiest one was an 8-10 hour project. The runners on the EVO are SO short that there isn't a mandrel bender made that can do them in one bend. This requires cutting each runner ATLEAST twice. Then you will have to grind and final fit from there. You also can't have an actual collector made which leaves you having to cut/grind each and every runner to come together at the flange for the turbo. This is a very long tedious job.

I think you will find that naturally aspirated long tube 4 cylinder headers are priced pretty good. Especially when you look at the fact that most of them are polished stainless steel with nice stainless flanges and all tig welded. We don't make any NA 4 cylinder headers but for the comanies that do that I have seen they are nice and priced decent too. Borla made some for the non turbo DSM for Archer Racing. These were really nice, back then they were a little high priced but from what I have seen the prices have dropped over the years. Still, all stainless steel, mandrel bent and tig welded. These are hard to find in domestic V8 headers. When you start mig welding mild steel headers together that are bent in one continuous bend it really cuts costs in both material and labor involved.

A typical stainless steel header of good quality for an LS1 engine (I am using this as an example since I have one and have bought two sets) will run you about $750 retail. This is inline with what a four cylinder long tube NA header will run also, around $325-350 for one.

As for the comments made about the EPA and offroad pipes, MAN IS THIS THE TRUTH. We were just contacted about it. We had to supply them with all of our records since 1998. Numbers of offroad pipes and components we have sold, what was done to insure the parts were used for offroad use etc. As you all have noticed we no longer advertise these parts on our website. I don't know what will come of the entire investigation but I am hoping for the best. Four other companies we sell to were contacted also. I don't know if the entire "offroad use only" issue will be stopped or not. For now we don't advertise them and will only sell them on request to someone that wants it for offroad use.

We will always and have always offered high flow 2.5" and 3" cats for our systems. You will have other options over keeping your cats.

Take care all,

David Buschur

 

<soapbox mode="thread highjack">
I'm glad to see our federal government has it priorities straight as usual. I'm not sure which is worse, pissing away money on the rediculous enforcement of EPA regulations such as this or criminalization of marijuana. Meanwhile they're ramming us in the *** for $87 BILLION to "cure" Iraq.

How many "off road pipes" are in use on the street? Aren't there existing laws in place to handle the people that run them on the street? Why not enforce it at the state level?
</soapbox>

 

Here's a link to the actual law regarding replacing catalytic convertors.

http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-GENE...-10/g14481.htm

I'm fairly certain that if they find an aftermarket catalytic convertor anywhere on your car, you (or the installer depending on how you read this) will have to prove that the original cat failed in some way.

As you can see by the date, this is a relatively new movement by the EPA. Please be careful with cat replacement or deletion, none of us are totally sure how this is going to play out.

ANYONE OUT THERE WITH A LAW DEGREE THAT CAN HELP US INTERPRET THIS?

 

...sometimes people run over hammers... big ones! I ran over a hammer once and had to install another cat. It even bent the cat bolts a little, and I had to replace them too. Now that I think about it, in my 20's I ran over several heavy objects on the freeway. Any of them could have damaged the cat...