ATP'S GARRETT GTX3582R product review
Feb 12, 2011, 01:48 PM
#81
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The bottom line is its a biggish turbo for a two litre four and the T housings are compromised because they are trying to adapt a clockwise rotation turbo to suit an anti clockwise application . Garrett's own S compressor housing is a bit so so and the smaller E one is for packaging reasons so you have to ask yourself if the thing works ok to start with .
The best analogy I can think of is comparing a big cartridge in small housings to a big engine in a car with a small exhaust system , it sort of works to a point where it chokes and is then compromised .
My opinion only but I think the GTX 3071R is probably the best of the X family and the 3076 version the next least compromised .
No Garrett GT3582R has optimal housings either end I suspect because they went a little larger than is good with limited sized housings in small frame GT BB guise .
A .
The best analogy I can think of is comparing a big cartridge in small housings to a big engine in a car with a small exhaust system , it sort of works to a point where it chokes and is then compromised .
My opinion only but I think the GTX 3071R is probably the best of the X family and the 3076 version the next least compromised .
No Garrett GT3582R has optimal housings either end I suspect because they went a little larger than is good with limited sized housings in small frame GT BB guise .
A .
Feb 13, 2011, 09:13 AM
#84
The whole GT3582R thing has been discussed at great length on other boards but possibly not here because of the two litre four cylinder engine these cars have .
I'll go into the as supplied Garrett GT3582R pre GTX era and come back to them .
All the "small frame" Garrett GT BB turbos use the same sized center section and bearing pack from the smallest GT2554R to the largest GT3582R .
All the turbines in this range ie TB25/GT28/GT30/GT35 are virtually interchangeable - specifically some differ to suit the axial length of the comp wheel and from memory the largest use a slightly larger diameter section the comp slides over .
The bearing housings are the same except they are machined to suit the major diameter of the comp wheel because it sits down in it .
The whole range of comp housings can fit the same bearing housings because the smallest fits directly with a circlip and the larger ones have adapter rings to adapt T series housings to the front of the bearing housing .
The GT3582R is a factory Garrett Bitzer because neither of its wheels are a close match to the housings Garrett supply for these turbos .
From what I can tell the T3 flanged turbine housings Garrett intends us to use are machined out GT30 castings so take one high temp spec GT30 T housing and bore it out to 68mm rather than 60mm and profile to suit the GT35 turbine .
Off the top of my head GT35 based diesel turbos were originally larger frame plain bearing units with bigger diameter shafts and bearings . They had 71mm/76mm/82mm compressor options and the better ones had GT40 series compressor housings .
As we know Garrett uses the 0.70 A/R T04S comp housings on their BB small frame GT3582R and I think its a bit lacking and would have been a marketing/bean counters decision rather than an engineers one .
I don't think the compressor maps for these units ever looked brilliant , the islands aren't exactly wide which I think tells us that the 82mm GT40 compressor is a bit big for that S housing .
Now Garrett use the 56 trim comp in these turbos but there are other smaller trim versions of this compressor family , 48/50/52/54/56 trims I found details of . HKS use the 50T version of this wheel in their spec GT3082R where Garrett's horror has the 56T in it .
To get a bit of an idea what the smaller trim wheels maps look like search for the GT4082 comp map , much wider ranging thing admittedly in a GT40 comp housing thats vaguely similar outline to a T04S .
If you go digging you will find that the earliest origins of these turbos was a special HKS had Garrett make and was called GT3240 . It's basically a GT35 turbine cropped back to GT32 like dimensions in 84 T and has the 54T version of the 82mm GT40 compressor . I believe HKS even does kits to fit these turbos onto 4G63's .
So rounding up I think Garrett went too big in the wheels with GT3582R's and was attempting to keep the unit reasonably compact for packaging reasons by using slightly inappropriate housings .
Move forward to the GTX compressor era . These compressor wheels for a given size move a bit more air than the GT series wheels they replaced do but how much can you gain if you use the same sized compressor housing .
The GTX3071R has moved up to a larger A/R size in the T04E comp housing family (0.50 to 0.60 A/R) and now has the 4 inch inlet port shrouded inlet boss . This is a logical move since the 71mm X comp has got closer to the airflow rates that a std GT3076R has and they work well in their native comp housings .
The GTX 76R and 82R units have gone nowhere with comp housings though the 82 one now has the port shrouded inlet standard .
As FullRace Geoff mentioned other mobs such as FP went to larger comp housings when they fitted higher capacity comp wheels and they wouldn't go to the trouble and expense for no reason .
As I said ATP appear to be using a smaller E family housing on their Evo 4-9 GT3582R kit and it remains to be seen how well it will work in the real world .
Actually Garrett supplied GT3582Rs to Ford here in Australia with the large 1.06 A/R IW turbine housing on one end and a 0.50 A/R T04E housing on the other . They were used on a 4L inline six in a low (4-6 lb) boost application .
ATP may be thinking along the same lines as the large ratio turbine housing and getting power from low restriction and twin scrolls .
With the later Typhoon version of that Ford XR6 Turbo Garrett supplied a hybrid GT3576R meaning the GT35 turbine and the 76mm compressor from the GT3076R , I'm not sure which comp housing they use - possibly the same 0.50 A/R E one .
Time and testing will tell the real story , I tend to think that biggish wheels in small/med trims and TS is where strong torque turbos are . Garrett seems to go the opposite way with modest sized wheels in big trims and single scroll turbine housings , I think they do this for packaging and cost reasons .
I just can't help feeling that the aftermarket section at Garrett is using us as test mules for wheels that may one day turn up in big dollar huge volume OE contract turbos . They don't have to guarantee a result to the generic aftermarket do they ?
A .
I'll go into the as supplied Garrett GT3582R pre GTX era and come back to them .
All the "small frame" Garrett GT BB turbos use the same sized center section and bearing pack from the smallest GT2554R to the largest GT3582R .
All the turbines in this range ie TB25/GT28/GT30/GT35 are virtually interchangeable - specifically some differ to suit the axial length of the comp wheel and from memory the largest use a slightly larger diameter section the comp slides over .
The bearing housings are the same except they are machined to suit the major diameter of the comp wheel because it sits down in it .
The whole range of comp housings can fit the same bearing housings because the smallest fits directly with a circlip and the larger ones have adapter rings to adapt T series housings to the front of the bearing housing .
The GT3582R is a factory Garrett Bitzer because neither of its wheels are a close match to the housings Garrett supply for these turbos .
From what I can tell the T3 flanged turbine housings Garrett intends us to use are machined out GT30 castings so take one high temp spec GT30 T housing and bore it out to 68mm rather than 60mm and profile to suit the GT35 turbine .
Off the top of my head GT35 based diesel turbos were originally larger frame plain bearing units with bigger diameter shafts and bearings . They had 71mm/76mm/82mm compressor options and the better ones had GT40 series compressor housings .
As we know Garrett uses the 0.70 A/R T04S comp housings on their BB small frame GT3582R and I think its a bit lacking and would have been a marketing/bean counters decision rather than an engineers one .
I don't think the compressor maps for these units ever looked brilliant , the islands aren't exactly wide which I think tells us that the 82mm GT40 compressor is a bit big for that S housing .
Now Garrett use the 56 trim comp in these turbos but there are other smaller trim versions of this compressor family , 48/50/52/54/56 trims I found details of . HKS use the 50T version of this wheel in their spec GT3082R where Garrett's horror has the 56T in it .
To get a bit of an idea what the smaller trim wheels maps look like search for the GT4082 comp map , much wider ranging thing admittedly in a GT40 comp housing thats vaguely similar outline to a T04S .
If you go digging you will find that the earliest origins of these turbos was a special HKS had Garrett make and was called GT3240 . It's basically a GT35 turbine cropped back to GT32 like dimensions in 84 T and has the 54T version of the 82mm GT40 compressor . I believe HKS even does kits to fit these turbos onto 4G63's .
So rounding up I think Garrett went too big in the wheels with GT3582R's and was attempting to keep the unit reasonably compact for packaging reasons by using slightly inappropriate housings .
Move forward to the GTX compressor era . These compressor wheels for a given size move a bit more air than the GT series wheels they replaced do but how much can you gain if you use the same sized compressor housing .
The GTX3071R has moved up to a larger A/R size in the T04E comp housing family (0.50 to 0.60 A/R) and now has the 4 inch inlet port shrouded inlet boss . This is a logical move since the 71mm X comp has got closer to the airflow rates that a std GT3076R has and they work well in their native comp housings .
The GTX 76R and 82R units have gone nowhere with comp housings though the 82 one now has the port shrouded inlet standard .
As FullRace Geoff mentioned other mobs such as FP went to larger comp housings when they fitted higher capacity comp wheels and they wouldn't go to the trouble and expense for no reason .
As I said ATP appear to be using a smaller E family housing on their Evo 4-9 GT3582R kit and it remains to be seen how well it will work in the real world .
Actually Garrett supplied GT3582Rs to Ford here in Australia with the large 1.06 A/R IW turbine housing on one end and a 0.50 A/R T04E housing on the other . They were used on a 4L inline six in a low (4-6 lb) boost application .
ATP may be thinking along the same lines as the large ratio turbine housing and getting power from low restriction and twin scrolls .
With the later Typhoon version of that Ford XR6 Turbo Garrett supplied a hybrid GT3576R meaning the GT35 turbine and the 76mm compressor from the GT3076R , I'm not sure which comp housing they use - possibly the same 0.50 A/R E one .
Time and testing will tell the real story , I tend to think that biggish wheels in small/med trims and TS is where strong torque turbos are . Garrett seems to go the opposite way with modest sized wheels in big trims and single scroll turbine housings , I think they do this for packaging and cost reasons .
I just can't help feeling that the aftermarket section at Garrett is using us as test mules for wheels that may one day turn up in big dollar huge volume OE contract turbos . They don't have to guarantee a result to the generic aftermarket do they ?
A .
Thanks very much for your insight on all of this i def. learned a lot from what you posted as i'm sure many others did as well.
It seems you have a lot of background knowledge on this subject more so than i and def. appreciate taking the time to help inform the masses and keep the thread on-topic and subjective
I have recently spoken to many including other companies about stuffing big wheels in smaller housings but it seems to be a more common thing going on and i guess real-world testing will tell the story of whether or not it will work and be efficient for us.
On that note as an update we have worked-out the intake clearance issue and had to complete some other necessary work on this customer's car so it has not yet been on the dyno sorry for the delay but we have been quite busy but hope to have it tested soon.
For those interested it was brought up on our local forum concerning the clearance with the block so here are some add'l angles to check out
Feb 13, 2011, 11:18 AM
#88
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Patrick & all hi.
I installed one of these kits a couple of adays ago, on a EVO 7. with a boost tee attached I coildn't get the car to get more than 25psi. There are no leaks in the system. The car made 393whp @ 25psi, but when I tried to increase boost I got none. I pulled the wastegate line of the actuator but got no boost increase???? Any solutions???
I installed one of these kits a couple of adays ago, on a EVO 7. with a boost tee attached I coildn't get the car to get more than 25psi. There are no leaks in the system. The car made 393whp @ 25psi, but when I tried to increase boost I got none. I pulled the wastegate line of the actuator but got no boost increase???? Any solutions???
Feb 13, 2011, 12:12 PM
#90
Evolving Member
Even with a scattershield it's easy to move the mounting bolt away from the inlet by an inch. Coincidentally that's what I did last Friday. Just drill another hole 1 inch farther away from the inlet and move the bolt and metal strap over. I was able to fit a 45* 4" silicone coupler easily.