I prefer Dynoflash's method of tuning simply due to the fact that timing advancement and adjustment paired with the correct fuel is simply optimizing the point at which the explosion occurs within the cylinder, something which has been proven safe and is the usual method of tuning in most mainstream "chipped" cars as well as in this application. If done properly this is a proven method of making additional reliable power while avoiding detonation and maintaining low EGT temps, in this application as well as in others. The Dynoflash seems to be the richest running while running the most consistent boost curve of the bunch without any tampering with the knock sensor. Once again its all subjective.

 

A new kinder, gentler feel on the same old game. The comparison you bring up isn't applicable to this argument. It isn't about SAFC vs. flash. It is flash v. flash. Until we get a shoot out when multiple flashers flash the same car and test the results, it is just a bunch of hot air.

It would be great to see a true flash to flash comparison--HP, EGt's, etc on one evo.

 

Good questions! Lets start with the SAFC comment and the context it was presented:
The SAFC surely does induce timing and Closed Loop (CL) changes with its particular processing of the Fuel (as a side effect) This particular flash doesnt.

As far as how "twisted" the timing is, is really conjecture- (looks like subaru tuning to me). As many of you know there are many ways to make power and all have comprimises to make in heat, mechanical stress, and in cylinder pressures. Most adhere to a mix though this can be SNAFUd too.



I think that was addressed here:

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I have my hands on 2 dynoflashed weekend driven Evos that the owners were pretty happy with even stock power- So I suggested Dynoflashes for additional pep. It worked out fine but some days are better than others (just like subaru tuning). The factory knock sensor is definately good! But there is no better way to ride it than with ign advance.

Dont take offense to this but do you know Al personally? Also I feel I have gone as far as I can with stating the facts and measurement without critisizing a product and especially when the tuner cannot answer back. I know Mark prolly doesnt want me involved this much in this thread so Im stopping here and think Ive overstepped my original intention which was to present the measurements as I knew them

 

Your not interested in consistancy and CL tuning? Ok then

 

MP5 is providing a huge point of information about how the through-the-mail DynoFlash achieves its gains: through highly aggressive timing advance and sufficient fuel dumping to quell any knock sensor activity.

I think the trade-off made (lower EGT's for higher cylinder pressures) is entirely relevant here to anyone comparing offerings.

EDIT: "lower" and "higher" instead of "low" and "high" because we are discussing relative not absolute differences.

 

Very correct and good post. However you are right ign advance and rich fueling lead to time pruven power on alot of chipped cars we also have a unique situation of having a very strong cast block/ good internals/ head design and a large and efficient turbo system that can also be utilized properly.

Lighting the spark early is great but there are in cylinder pressures to be accounted for and besides Im not knocking this approach the original arguments I made were about additional codewriting/ control and features of the reflashes.

$200 is a great deal for OL tuning
But I feel $400-$600 for primary/ secondary- OL/ CL tuning is even better

 

Some may argue that the desensitization of the knock sensor is Shiv's method of working around potential timing pull in lieu of his leaner afrs. Trying to stay as on topic as possible It wouldn't hurt if each of the respective tuners gave their take on this. I'd very much like to see Al's explanation as to the possiblity of higher in cylinder temps as well as Shiv's take on the leaner AFRs he utilizes and the knock sensor adjustment in his tune. Also, how relaible is the pill removal in either the Works or Vishnu offerings as far as preventing boost spike in the colder climates?

 

Well knock attenuation is not a feature of the Xflash AFAIK. Knock attenuation is another story and is too complicated for me but I have talked with Shiv and feel comfortable with his efforts and feelings on the subject. As far as "lean" thats a subjective term David Buschur himself has no problem with running 12.0:1 on his tuned cars (remenber we have that strong block and other nifty hardware) And for the most part 4g63 tuners do choose boost and "relative leanness" to high ignition advance which scrapped a lot of Aluminum EJ20s (Im not implying that here per say) So thats what Im saying is that playing to the strength of the 4G63 is boost but everything in this game is a comprimise.

 

I don't think MP5 is providing enough information for anyone to compare anything...... Sure he says that the mail order Dynoflash offers avanced timing with concommitant fuel dumping to make more power before the knock sensor pulls timing and makes less power. What he does not say however is how the Vishnu or Works mail order flashes do their thing.
More importantly, there are really no comparisons of the 3 flashes in question done to the same car with the resulting dyno graphs to prove or disprove which one makes more or less power.
Another thing MP5, can you elaborate on the "higher cylinder pressures" statement? It seems to me that most tuners (if not all) go for the most aggressive timing advance thatb they can get away with. It seems that this would always result in higher cylinder pressures, no? If so, what is wrong with advancing the timing as much as possible? If this requires richer mixtures to avoid detonation, so be it. What would be your preference in tuning?
From what little I know, the other way to make power is to run as lean a mixture as possible without melting the engine. The SAFC can and does allow the leaning of fuel mixture. However, the EVOs tend to knock rather readily with lean mixtures so in many cases the SAFC cannot be used either safely of effectively as the leaner A/Fs seem to cause timing advance which in turn causes knock, which makes the ECU pull timing with the resulting power losses..... It's kind of a catch 22.......
Anyway, going back to the original idea of comparing reflashes, the only way to do it would be to try each different reflash in the same car and try to get consistent dyno tests on each reflash to see what happens.

just my $.02

 

As I said before I don't claim to understand nearly on the level of what each respective tuner does beyond some basic stuff and a little background knowledge as to where each tuner came from. Its my understanding that Vishnu's method of tuning on our car is very similar to what was and is successful for the ej20 wrx motor including knock sensor attenuation, which to me is working on the assumption that some of the "noise" picked up by the factory knock correction in each car is not detonation and therefore leads to uneccessary timing pull, which very well may be true in our application as evidenced by the recent issues with crank pulleys and the Dynoflash. However, as previously mentioned leaner AFRs have been shown to lead to a greater instance of timing pull (possibly detonation?) on these cars, something I experienced myself on a stock car with only a 2.5" DP which in the lower rpms showed a good deal of timing pull in lieu of the leaner condition.

 

Well I thought people woulda concluded that the peak HP is negligible. This occurs in WOT OL conditions- Al can tune this just fine.

The statements about same car same day are fine but consistancy isnt mentioned and might not be the utmost priority.

As for the statement of in cylinder pressure it should be like someone crying "fire in a movie theatre" its arbitrary and could be looked at the same as higher EGT or higher boost pressure. What one needs to ask is a spearheaded approach as proper as a healthy mix or utilization of the larger and efficient turbo system? As far as you kinda alluding to me "alledging this" Thats just basic simple engine theory. Its a fact your burning more gas higher volitility high pressure.

The point of this is I bet they are all within 10 HP along the curve and the same with torque in OL zones. Some will be more consistant day to day throttle stab to throttle stab. Some will be noticably better with gas and or power in closed loop thats all Noones getting the "best deal" Your getting exactly the tuning you pay for

 

Well OK thanks for the good and civil way in which you present your points! Shiv takes completely different approaches with the EVO. He plays to each respected cars strongpoints well. The subies love advance (it can get dangerous though and shiv even runs more boost and less timing on them than other tuners) Als approach is much more "Subie" than Shiv. As far as "lean" AFRs we need to keep things in perspective and not confuse it with "dangerously detting lean" but a manageable comprimize lean compared to Als. The very good design of the EVO head does help alot with det suppression and whatnot

 

Any sort of timing pull can and will minimalize the consistent repeatable gains of a method of tuning. To me at this point its all in the opinion of the buyer as to which is the safest or most effective, I doubt we will ever see any definitive evidence as to one of the above being safer over time then the others, Choose your comprimise and go with it. Realistically none of the through the mail options will considerably shorten the lifespan of your engine assuming proper maintenance, not to the extent that an uninformed individual with an AFC can. Proper tuning is a lot of give and take.

Nothing but a friendly discussion here, I have nothing against you or any of the above tuners.

 

Correct. Just adhear to what your tuner recomends as far as boost settings (Dont Cheat!!)

 

The majority of responses in this thread have been very thoughtful and well written. However, the thread was getting out of hand. We won't permanently lock this thread, but will/have locked out those who clearly lost site of the original question. Those who want to continue aggressive vendor defending will be voted off the island called thread . Thanks.

The thread is now re-opened.

Speedlimit...

P.S. If you are wondering what the heck I'm talking about; several post where deleted.