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Borg Warner s200sxe (s257)

 
Old Jun 12, 2017, 02:47 PM
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Borg Warner s200sxe (s257)

anyone have any experience? id love to run an efr, but i just spent my turbo money on a house.

https://www.full-race.com/store/borg...00-sxe-7670-1/

seems like a solid turbo, but i havent seen/heard much about them. Searching really only turns up a lot of srt4's (and some modified turbos from AGP). There was one thread on here with a few results for the s256 but they were open scroll.

the info i can find makes this seem like a potentially very potent setup.
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Old Jun 12, 2017, 08:59 PM
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Are you looking for an apples to apples comparison or some ideas from the turbo itself? Guy on the bmw forums was running one for a hot minute, could link you to his info(3.2 I6 though)
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Old Jun 13, 2017, 07:08 AM
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General ideas I guess. I saw some BMW stuff but the engine says made me skeptical to really take it as useful info really. I'm really starting to think it's a super under rated turbo that everyone ignores...
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Old Jun 13, 2017, 07:21 AM
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If it was as magical as people think it is , don't you think more people would use it? It at least would need an ecu with a speed sensor to keep it from exploding.

What are your power goals?
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Old Jun 13, 2017, 07:35 AM
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So, basically the same aero and billet compressor as a 7670, just a standard Inconel turbine. I guess it depends where it spools. Look for 7670 results and add a few hundred rpm to the boos threshold would be my guess.
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Old Jun 13, 2017, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Abacus View Post
If it was as magical as people think it is , don't you think more people would use it? It at least would need an ecu with a speed sensor to keep it from exploding.

What are your power goals?
Not saying it's magical, just finding it curious that it's basically not used on evos that I can find. There's tons of srt's running then it seems. No goals really, just not gonna spend the money on a stock frame setup. It is going on rarely driven/mostly track car...so power without spoiling at 5k on a stock block.

It's also inconel vs gamma-ti so it may not be as fragile as an efr

Originally Posted by letsgetthisdone View Post
So, basically the same aero and billet compressor as a 7670, just a standard Inconel turbine. I guess it depends where it spools. Look for 7670 results and add a few hundred rpm to the boos threshold would be my guess.
I did a bit, but a lot are either big cams or big motors, so the graphs are skewed. It looks like it should spoil by 4200ish on a journal bearing...but I'm not 100% sure. Shouldn't have an issue doing 450whp on a stock block.
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Old Jun 13, 2017, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by killerpenguin21 View Post
Not saying it's magical, just finding it curious that it's basically not used on evos that I can find. There's tons of srt's running then it seems. No goals really, just not gonna spend the money on a stock frame setup. It is going on rarely driven/mostly track car...so power without spoiling at 5k on a stock block.

It's also inconel vs gamma-ti so it may not be as fragile as an efr



I did a bit, but a lot are either big cams or big motors, so the graphs are skewed. It looks like it should spoil by 4200ish on a journal bearing...but I'm not 100% sure. Shouldn't have an issue doing 450whp on a stock block.
Just seems like a lot of work on a stock block car. You're limited to 400ft lbs and around 8000rpm. Going to a larger turbocharger is going to just move the band to the right and you will still be limited on making TQ. Change the manifold and its going to change the sound of the car. Most cars start to sound more like a honda. Also, having a tubular manifold is more likely to crack compared to a cast piece.
Nothing is going to have the transient response like a good stock frame bolt on like a green or red with the MHI housing. They basically took what Mitsubishi designed and made it better. Look how far RS motors went with a green before going to a gtx3076r gen 2. There is also "Honda guy "with his Red. I've also pushed mine pretty far and done a handful of track days at 25psi/450whp. Don't forget "Nils" He won the time attack championships for years on a red

The Red will easily make 400ft lbs at 4000 if you want it to. Same downpipe/manifold and combo of what you already own.

With Ethanol, you don't really need to worry about EGT's with a stock frame. If you are limited to pump gas then you may want to go with a twin scroll t3 style.

I'm a fan of keeping it simple unless its going to be a max effort .

Last edited by Abacus; Jun 13, 2017 at 03:26 PM.
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Old Jun 13, 2017, 04:25 PM
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all the work? so changing a manifold?

im not a fan of FP, or single scroll.

a single scroll bb fp red all in will cost you damn near $3500 once you buy a wastegate and figure out an o2 housing.

S257 + twinscroll manifold + wastegates is about $2500. and i bet it will last longer.

honda guy never pushed his red, i know him personally. he was running on wastegate the majority of time for TT power rules, now hes on a stock turbo. i just cant wrap my head around spending over $3k for a "bolt on" setup when there are better things out there for that money. im not here to argue the merits of stock frame vs t3 or t4 setups honestly...i know i dont want stock frame.
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Old Jun 13, 2017, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by killerpenguin21 View Post
all the work? so changing a manifold?

im not a fan of FP, or single scroll.

a single scroll bb fp red all in will cost you damn near $3500 once you buy a wastegate and figure out an o2 housing.

S257 + twinscroll manifold + wastegates is about $2500. and i bet it will last longer.

honda guy never pushed his red, i know him personally. he was running on wastegate the majority of time for TT power rules, now hes on a stock turbo. i just cant wrap my head around spending over $3k for a "bolt on" setup when there are better things out there for that money. im not here to argue the merits of stock frame vs t3 or t4 setups honestly...i know i dont want stock frame.
Slow down,we are all adults here. Relax, its just a discussion forum.

If you reread what I wrote I said "Nothing is going to have the transient response like a good stock frame bolt on like a green or red with the MHI housing."

I also said "Same downpipe/manifold and combo of what you already own."


You know whats involved on going to a T3 manifold, DP, WG,inlet and intercooler piping, lines. Changing out the setup to push the band to the right on a stock block just doesn't seem worth it but I wont argue with you. Most people can have alot of fun with a big powerband and 450-500whp at the roadcourse. More power is going to need more cooling at some point.

Looking forward to your results Sir.

Last edited by Abacus; Jun 13, 2017 at 08:00 PM.
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Old Jun 13, 2017, 06:24 PM
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This was an S256 on a DSM.

I have a 2.3 with HKS 272's, stock intake, S90 TB port matched everything and tubular single scroll header with a S256 with the .55 DSM ar. The trick that made the difference was when the tuner played with cam degreeing. Once we deviated from the cam card things happened real fast.
I'd expect a 2.0 with twin scroll to spool a tad slower (would have been very similar if this 2.3L setup had a T3/T4 setup instead of the spool-friendly .55 AR housing), and the 57mm billet compressor would move peak power to the right.

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Last edited by RS200; Jun 13, 2017 at 06:35 PM.
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Old Jun 14, 2017, 05:40 AM
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I'm relaxed Abacus, just stating some facts. I know you've had success with the red, but I'm not looking just for numbers on a dyno. Fp went in the wrong direction for me when they went to the single scroll housing. In early bought a green awhile back but every dyno I saw showed the open housing green spooling where the old red did, and that's just not for me.

As far as I know the borg turbos are relatively small in size, there shouldn't need to be a shift to the manifold and therefore I don't think there will be a huge amount of relocation work. I used to subscribe to the stock frame vs t3 and t4 argument, but nowadays afterth shrinking of the stock frame market, things have changed and there are better turbos and better setups to be had going a at from stock frame.
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Old Jun 14, 2017, 08:31 AM
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A 2.0L will loos 500-700rpm for boost threshold from a 2.3L. The turbine housing difference and larger compressor will probably slow spool another 200-400rpm. Mivec will gain back about 200-300rpm. So you'll likely end up with boos threshold around 4500. Which is where my MHI red spools at...
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Old Jun 14, 2017, 09:17 AM
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Hot side taken out of the equation, if you could get bb red performance for significantly cheaper would you still buy a red?

I also still think a twin scroll would outspool the red.
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Old Jun 14, 2017, 09:47 AM
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I would buy my red again even if I had to spend what I spent on it back when FP was running out of MHI housings and they were charging extra for them as an option (my turbo was $2,900 with ported MHI hotside, HTZ compressor, and Xona billet CHRA). I already had an O2 dump, 3" dp and intake. All I did was bolt on the turbo and tuned it. I don't have to worry about a tubular manifold cracking,


That BW is $1003 with a turbine housing and 3" vband outlet. You are not going to buy two tial MVS wastegates, an exhaust manifold, DP, LICP, intake, and assorted plumbing (a whole turbo kit) for $2k
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Old Jun 14, 2017, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by killerpenguin21 View Post
I'm relaxed Abacus, just stating some facts. I know you've had success with the red, but I'm not looking just for numbers on a dyno. Fp went in the wrong direction for me when they went to the single scroll housing. In early bought a green awhile back but every dyno I saw showed the open housing green spooling where the old red did, and that's just not for me.

As far as I know the borg turbos are relatively small in size, there shouldn't need to be a shift to the manifold and therefore I don't think there will be a huge amount of relocation work. I used to subscribe to the stock frame vs t3 and t4 argument, but nowadays afterth shrinking of the stock frame market, things have changed and there are better turbos and better setups to be had going a at from stock frame.
Gotcha, it just looked like you missed some key details on what I said.
My car makes more then clean numbers and a fat powerband, Its run in just about any condition. Auto X, road course, drag, 1/2 mile, street pulls so its far from just numbers on a dyno IF thats where you were going with that. I've driven the car to the drag strip ran 10's over 130 on street tires and run an auto x shortly thereafter. Its got 15K of solid abuse on that turbo and its the older HTA design, not the new and improved xona. I'm not saying FP is the end all be all, but its simple and works really well for most. Bolting a turbo on and picking up over 100whp and the spool up is close to stock was a win for me. This is back in the stock ecu days but it will make 400ft lbs at 4000 if you turn the boost up . This is stock turbo pump gas with to the red on ethanol both on the stock ecu with mediocre tuning. I picked up even more power once I went with an ecu that was easier to work with.
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They were out of MHI housings. They had no other choice. FWIW You can send them a good MHI housing to have machined though.

Its hard to beat an OE designed twin scroll setup with hundreds of hours into it . OE want the most power quickly and for as long as possible. An aftermarket manifold is nice for making big numbers but won't compare to an OE design in terms of response and durability. I highly doubt another Borg/X twinscroll would have the transient response and power of a red/black unless its a Variable geometry turbocharger and gets a Motec to run it.

I've seen a 2.3 EFR dynograph that made good power but tapered badly and sounded like a honda. Whenever you change the manifold the cars note changes with it.

Last edited by Abacus; Jun 14, 2017 at 10:25 AM.
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