Buschur Racing ethanol content testing, mind blown.
 

Alright…….long story, I'll make it as short as possible and try to get all the information in this I can.

We have drums of purchased E98 here at the shop. After putting some in a few cars with flex fuel sensors the ethanol content was coming up way short of the expected E98 reading. I assumed that the ethanol had taken on water from condensation and that was the problem.

I did a lot of Google searching to find out what happens when water is introduced to ethanol and how it effects the reading on the meter…….I found nothing.

I decided to build a test fixture for transferring fuel from the drums to the cans/cars and then we would know as it was pumped what the ethanol content was.

Now as a side note, before you watch the video. I became interested in ethanol back around 2004 and applied for Small Ethanol Plant Permit and have been making ethanol at home through a Reflux Still I also built. I was hoping this new test device I built was going to shorten the process of testing that ethanol. I was wrong. In the video I tested some E90 I produced and in the video I verified the E90 (other 10% in my ethanol is water) with a hydrometer before the testing, also in the video.

I'll skip forward to answer some of the obvious questions.

The Ethanol Content Analyzer after talking with Zeitronix, does NOT test ETHANOL content. It actually test for GASOLINE content in the flex fuel sensor and then the ECA does the math for us telling us what the percentage of ethanol is or I think more accurately, what percentage of what is going through the flex fuel sensor is NOT gasoline. You will understand that more after watching the video.

Enjoy.

The link is not working David.

Thanks for the information David!

Sorry!! Link is fixed.

LOL talk about insane. So if I took a piss in your tank your eth content would stay the same, since the amount of gas wouldln't change.
Glad i'm sticking to methanol with a wideband failsafe.

I wonder why the tap water shows E100?

very informative, good job as always David

There is a Part 2 coming today or tomorrow.

Whoa! isn't that the same sensor on most of the newer "flex" ECU (eg: E-manage Ultimate) ?

There is nothing wrong with the sensor.

Thanks for conducting this test; it is very interesting. Every time I fill up I test my e85 to make sure its actually on par. I was traveling one time and tested the fuel at a random station and it came out to like e50. Glad I tested it with my little test tube thingy.

David- Im a little confused though with your findings. I understand that the sensor tests for presence of gas not ethanol and then draws its conclusions from that. What I dont get though is when you tested 100% water it came out to e100 because it didnt find any gasoline thus the rest was assumed to be ethanol. OK that makes sense. However when you tested your brewed ethanol which you know to be 90% with the other 10% being water right now it came out to 0% ethanol. How could that be? Why wouldnt it also show it to be e100 like the water sample since there is 0% gasoline in it?

That is the most confusing part for me too. I don't understand it myself.

I should have asked the question diffently. So this thingy should be called Fluid-That-Is-Not-Gasoline Sensor.

:lol: Just wanted to make sure I wasn't being dense.

As I think about it, Im not sure it really matters that it shows 100% when testing water because realistically it should never be subjected to those conditions in the first place.

I guess the question remains though, will it pick up on the presence of water assuming the fuel is contaminated?

I want to say yes since as you add water to the sample the amount of ethanol is staying the same thus its % relative to the gasoline and now the water would go down. Is that a fair assumption?

It will not detect water until the ethanol is extremely contaminated with it, new video coming to show that tomorrow.

Awesome vid, thanks.

Logically, water contamination (as long as there is a notable amount, as David pointed out) would cause the sensor to read an increase in E content, actually an increase in fluid-that-is-not-gasoline content.

^Correct, that's sorta the unfortunate thing about the way the sensor determines ethanol content.

almost seems like false advertising. It should be called a gasoline content analyzer.

Well done sir. Mind blown.

As i understand it, the sensor measures resonant frequency of the RC circuit created by the liquid. Gasoline being a higher capacitance fluid, ethanol being higher conductivity and lower capacitance, water being conductive and should effectively make it look like a higher ethanol content.

Makes sense on the 100% water... But the E90... Mind blown.

Wait... What happens with distilled water? As distilled water is a dielectric and it's the minerals in your tap water that actually make it conductive...

FWIW, I think all flex fuel vehicles use a wideband and use it to trim the afr on top of the content sensor correction. They can correct for water contamination this way.

I was going to ask the same. Curious what the sensor would read with DI, Distilled, reagent grade water.

Interesting

Subscribed as I have the same sensor and it reads different then my test tube. Guessing the test tube is more accurate:dunno:

This I needed to know. Great info as I was going to buy the sensor.... I think I'm just going to continue to use the test tube lol
Could it be that the water in your tank that you produced was actually pure water, and the mineral content in the tap water was throwing it off? Idk just spit ballin here

Thanks for doing that testing David. I learned something new.

werd. who new?

Buschur uploaded the 2nd part of his test on his Youtube account... meanmitsu

Nice testing{pcfreak}:thumbup:. I haven't done any research on any possible differences in ethanol sensors between GM and Zeitronix, so bare with me, but do sensors found in GM vehicles analyze things differently with the same, or multiple sensors?

Very informative for everyone in the tuner/performance community thanks again Dave!{thumbup}:beer:.

thanks for the vid. if the sensor is based on conductivity, it makes sense that tap water, which is high conductivity, appears as 100% eth. would be interesting to see DI water which is much lower conductivity.

curious as to why you are suspecting water contamination. i guess its not an unrealistic possibility for e85 from a pump, but since water+eth is a bad combo for a motor, i like to think it doesn't happen.

I apologize for not making this 100% clear, but yes, the GM or whatever variant sensor thinks of water as ethanol.

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/10591085-post63.html

Great video!

I don't know why your "premium" ethanol fooled the sensor! I still have my logs and Everclear does in fact peg the sensor.

EDIT: I really don't wanna bust out my o-scope, but I will of you guys need closure. This could be a high-limit on ZT-Gauge as the analog circuit I devised doesn't care about limits.

Sorry for double post.

here part 2

What does this all mean?

What we need to ask ourselves is what happen when you find a bad gas station which add water or the E85 has more contamination that what the engine/tune can tolerate.

Maybe David could advice what needs to be consider in the tune or other readings from the engine. Base on those metrics, implement maybe a safe-fail mechanism to avoid catastrophic failure in the engine....

If I have a track day, I'll buy E85 directly from a race fuel vendor. this case is when you know that the engine will be put into the test.

Water in e85 is bad for the motor (formic acid production goes up during combustion and gasoline/ethanol separation occurs in the fuel tank in extreme contamination cases), and for those reasons, water content in e85 is more tightly controlled than in pump gas. The station storage tanks even have to be different to control water uptake. Check out the 2009 govt report on E85 sampling. Out of 150 samples taken across the country, the average water content was only ~0.6%, and only two had more than more than 1% water (1.3, 1.4%).

As you suggest, it would have to be deliberate contamination for water content to be in excess of 2%. This would never happen during manufacturing, only at an unscrupulous gas station. While an ethanol content sensor may not pickup a change from 0.5% to 10% water, your engine would tell you. Fuel trims would definitely drift lean, and my guess is that the motor wouldn't run as smoothly, probably have crappy idle.

The real concern should be getting a tank of E85 with lower than usual ethanol content, and as far as I'm concerned, a flex fuel sensor is great for monitoring this because the chance of having water-contaminated E85 is very very low.

My only gripe with the flex fuel sensor is that your getting the reading after the fuel has been pumped into your car. Don't get me wrong it's better than nothing however what do you do when you fill your tank and then it reads e70? I have no interest in putting the car around for 200 miles due to a bad tank of gas. Or even worse what happens if it comes out to something like 50%?

I prefer to spend the 2 minutes it takes to test it with my little test tube thingy and confirm that its the % im looking for before I fill her up.

But then what happens if for example you're tuned on E85 and you come up to a gas station and it turns out to be E70 and you confirm it with your test tube... Then you go to another gas station and it turns out to be E75 for example... And the next one and the next one... Then you run out of gas and wished you had put in some E70 in the first place...

Anyway you shouldn't have any issues during cruising if it's E85 or E70 yes? Your only concern would be boosted runs or WOT?

^Haha well that is the issue. Can't say I've never been in that situation before...I'm not sure how to calculate what affect running e70 would have on your AFR's relative to if it were e85 but I'd guess it could richen things up maybe 1/2 a point?

Realistically the car would probably drive fine on e70 but yes, I would certainly not get on it knowing its not the same ethanol content my car is tuned for.

Its unlikely anyone will be running real E100 or E0 so the good thing is if your sensor is reading either it would be safe to assume you have a problem.

Well said!

Great follow up video and good closure.

And to the ones that have a wideband and daily their vehicles, one can easily tell the difference from the fuel they got tuned with and another fuel in which your AFR values will either be a good half-point to point off based on whether the E85 content is high or low during a part throttle boost pull of about 15PSI+- or so. I always look when I fill up, so make sure you do that too along with using all the whiz-bang hardware we have today. If it's breaking up at that point, yes Virginia, we have a problem.

This thread had reminded me how important it is to test the e85 before pumping in. I just ordered, from Buschur, earlier today a e85 tester. $15, a lot cheaper than the zeitronix and I will know what it is BEFORE it gets pumped in. If it tests bad I don't need to pump it in, Im running a dual map tune.

I once was not paying attention and filled up with e70, i got tuned on e85, care ran like **** and under boost broke up a lot. Huge noticeable difference.

If you were tuned for 11.5 AFR on E85 and filled with E70 your AFR would decrease but should still run OK, assuming moderate boost and timing advance. If you are tuned "on the edge" it may be different.

Once you are over 50% ethanol/50% gas you get 90% of the benefits of adding ethanol to gas.

Every car that's running tuned should have an AFR gauge and the owner should be educated.

I've been running Eflex in Australia now for over 4 years continuously. It varies from E70 to E85, depending on time of year, and I've never had any problems.

yeah i was running 30psi, e85 was my aggressive map

It's the other way around. If you were at 11.5 on good known E85, a good known E70 fill-up would make your car run pig rich.

:) too much ethanol on board when I added that post. Yes, AFR's would be lower with E70. Tuning AFR's in the mid to high 11's should provide room either way for some variation in E content.

And the E85 tester that works by adding H2O only tell tells you what the CH3CH2OH content is, what is the rest? Do we need a flex fuel tester like the Zeitronix to go along with it?

No, it would go richer with less Ethanol, not leaner.

That depends on what's replacing the ethanol, no?

Of course, I was assuming gasoline.

Corrected my post to avoid confusion, thanks for those who pointed out the error.

I hate how inconsistent Ethanol can be. Here in NY I have to deal with "Winter Blend" and a greatly fluctuating Summer Blend too. Never ends. Thanks for the information tho!

David,

Don't you think it's still better to test the ethanol content by using the test tube than relying on the ECA?

The test tube we sell will tell you what the percentage is so you can be "safe" and know what you are getting.

The ECA from Zeitronix tells you the same thing without the hassle of the tube. The ECA also allows you to wire the input into an ECU and have the ECU change the calibration from pure ethanol to pure gasoline, so there is no worry of timing, fuel and boost needing to be changed at the content changes.

I will say i still want one for my car. also a little of topic but how do you guys test it at the gas station, pump it in to a gas can then put it in the tube or what?

Did you just show us in these videos that the ECA doesn't necessarily show the ethanol content of you fuel?

I always carry small plastic cup.but then again if I see that e85 is a piss I still fuel up cause I have no choice.just try using gas stations with decent e85 which I do.

Not easy or convenient to test at the gas station but what you said is what you have to do.