Can't make more than 40psi??
 

Has anyone else had this issue? Set up is 2.2 with a super99 with the 1.02 tial housing, single turbosmart 45mm gate with a 27psi spring. Pretty much max boost it will make is 38-40psi at which point it's making 540kw on a rolling road.
does anyone else have a similar set up? What results have you had? And has anyone else had similar issues?

you should be able to make more than 40.

tune
WG vacuum set up?

The tuner is fairly on to it so I doubt it's the tune, his shop Evo is pumping out 1300whp. I know they tried all sorts of configuration with the gate, they even put a bolt in to stop it opening all the way and are now getting 45psi. Now making 580kw which seems low for A super 99??

Something is up. That is REALLY low for a super99 and 45 psi. I mean 775 whp is still good power, but not for that turbo and that PSI. With saying that, there could be so many things. Starting with the tried and true, did you do a boost leak test? how is the compression? how is the overall engine health (leakdown..etc). Since the shop has a 1300whp Evo they clearly know how to tune/build...so they should be able to figure out what's going on.

They check boost leaks, it has those Wiggins clamps, checked bov and pressure drop accross intercooler (2psi @ 40psi boost) 45psi is with a bolt in the wastegate basically holding it shut ?!? Engine is brand new everything turbo is new everything is new.
they are back on to it on Monday I am just trying to do a bit of homework in the mean time but it's got me stumped. It's a fair way from the 1000whp I want to see

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What is the complete setup?

Engine displacement and stroke
Intake manifold
Exhaust and exhaust manifold
Cams
Cylinder head ported?
Etc...

Could be a number of things. Boost leak test being done and good points to exhaust restriction (causing back pressure), cam timing is off, bad combination of parts, etc...

It's a 63 block with 2.2 crank nitto long rods wiesco pistons kelford ported the head 280 kelford intake cam 288 exhaust oversize fererra valves, Hypertune billet intake with ls1 dbw throttle body. Custom headers. Side exit exhaust, turbosmart 45mm gate.
haltec full package individual egt the works, Siemens 2400cc injectors twin 044s with 044 lift pump.
its on E85 out of the can too.
I know they mucked around with cam timing and boost reference points, I know they checked for boost leaks. I'm not reinventing the wheel here so I don't know what's going on. The tuner is a fairly on to it guy I am sure he will get to the bottom of of it but it all seems a little odd. If ex manifold pressure is high enough to start pushing the gate open then with a bolt in there why wouldn't it try and over boost??
Surely someone on here has had this issue before?

Back pressure hurts HP, and if there's enough it will stop making more boost too.

Post pics of the exhaust manifold.

Is the boost controller plumbed correctly?

What size is the bumper exit exhaust?

Also make sure the turbo isn't hurt..

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...b3340cdb3f.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...bcb6c21cf9.jpg
I am fairly sure the headers are similar to his shop drag car, fabricated by the same guy. Not sure the size if the side exit I'll ask but it must be min 3.5" because any smaller would almost fit inside the turbine. Boost controller was set up fine and it can't be that because with a bolt in the gate preventing it from opening it still only made 45 psi. It's like it has to much pressure in the exhaust pipe but I doubt he would make that mistake. Turbo is brand new but I guess could have damage? Could cam timing do this and how far out would it have to be?

Ok, that all seems fine. 3.5" is plenty for the exhaust. manifold looks good.

What intercooler are you running? Have you made sure there are no blockages in it?

Are you logging turbo speed and emap? Have you eliminated the BOV COMPLETELY and done any dyno testing ?

They definitely checked the BOV and checked leaks in general. I would have thought anything leaking that much would be fairly apparent? It has those Wiggins clamps.
intercooler was probably the only part of the original set up that remains so I was concerned about this and I asked the tuner to put a pressure sensor either side of the cooler and it's got a 2 psi drop over it @ 40psi.
The cooler is a bar and plate it's about 75-80 mm thick 600mm long and 300mm high basically 3" * 12" * 24"

Not logging turbo speed.

checking it during standard blt is different than how it acts during engine operation. But fair enough. Emap is easy to log. You can check your back pressure easily under load. I would.

If you have the right springs for baseline boost level, and the wastegate is blowing open, definitely emap is high.

Yeh measuring emap is the next step but it's a 1.03 housing

All the more reason to investigate. Please share your results.

Ok so I just had a thought, the throttle body is a drive by wire unit off an ls1 given this engine and throttle body was not designed for boost, could the boost be starting to push it closed?

those are boosted regularly. It wouldn't be my first suspect. What unit is it? An OEM part or aftermarket? Your BOV would start to vent if you closed throttle enough to lower boost and it will even open with less differential in other circumstances. Is that something you can detect? (Leaking at wot) Actually this is why I suggest the BOV test above.

edited as I was making no bake cookies .. apparently making no sense either lol

Yeh you have a point there but if the throttle was closing rather than limiting boost by way of an intake blockage which would cause the differential and hence the BOV to open, it could be just reducing engine load and exhaust gases being produced and have equal pressure across the throttle plate? ( I am probably clutching at straws here)
its an oem TB.
The only parts i have supplied is the intercooler and the throttle body. The throttle body was never used before and the intercooler has been used on the previous set up.
Point to mention here, the previous set up had a similar issue only ran to 40psi on an fp3794, made 790hp on a hub Dyno. Completely different set up tho, different manifold, turbo, gate, intake, TB. Has had engine build since then too. Had a full exhaust then, @35psi boost was seeing 54psi in header and 15psi in the exhaust so I put it down to the exhaust being to small. Does seem a little odd to have such a similar problem the only thing common is the intercooler but with a 2psi pressure drop across it thats unlikely??

thats a itty bitty I/C for that turbo

Yeh true but 2psi is 2psi or am I missing something?

It could still be limiting power and is far less than ideal. You're dealing with an odd issue, and the mix match of parts certainly isn't helping things.

So I have some more data for this issue.
exhaust map max is 44-51psi when max boost is 43-44psi, variation is due to altering cam timing. Point to note max power was 579kw with exhaust map @51. Altering cam timing did not affect the boost it would make.
A bolt was put in the gate to stop it opening so this boost is the max the turbo will make at present, definitely nothing coming out of the gate.
Air temp in the Dyno room would have been around 100f and max intake temp got up to 131f.
max pressure drop across intercooler is 2-3psi.
Throttle body is definitely opening 100% and ecu is only using 40% of the a available output current to hold it open. Everything has been pulled off and pressure tested.
So, any ideas??

Ideally you could use a turbo speed sensor and that would tell you everything assuming FP has compressor maps available. Your EGBP:Boost is low so that would indicate you don't have a restriction pre turbo. Have you pulled the compressor housing to physically verify you have a Super 99? What fuel are you using, what AFR are you targeting and what timing are you running?

the turbo is actually the new 105.68 its brand new, I am not doing the tuning so I don't know the exact timing he is using but the tuner is one of the best in Australia for tuning Evos and has built some mega power evos, his is making 1300whp, so I assume the issue isn't with the tune, its on E85.
they have an old gt42 set up lying arounf the workshop they are going to throw on there to see what it does, the other thought was to just throw some NOS at it and see what happens.
funny thing is,, all the numbers and testing seems perfect, it just cant make more boost and power seems to be low although tuner thinks its making good power on his dyno for that boost level, from what I see on youtube it seems to be low compared to what you guys in the US re getting but im not sure if that's a dyno calibration thing or not.
something is preventing it from making more boost, that same thing could also be limiting power.

Ι see that by changing the dialing combo, you have achieved a bit higher boost, from 40 to 43 psi. The cam dialing combo, affects greatly the dynamic compression of an engine, which in turn affects power curve and peak tq/hp. It does not affect the amount of peak boost a setup can reach but it does affect the wgdc of it. Observe to see if there is any fluctuation in boost.



Since you have checked and re-checked everything and everything does seem in order including engine being built right and it is the healthiest and most efficient it could be, I have a couple of suggestions. Remove the boost control system completely including the gate, block off things, and allow the gasses to exit through a short exhaust pipe without any restriction on it.


Next would be to borrow and change the turbo to something of similar size, which is on another similar setup that already makes say 55psi.




Also bear in mind that 580kw is around 780whp, and if this happens on a low reader dyno, then the power matches the boost level and setup, although you could make some more power on that boost level. Mapping has all to do with how much power you make. From the power levels you posted here in relation to boost and setup, I conclude that the fuel that you use is up to the job, and since your tuner wants to make more power by increasing boost, and there is no problem knockwise, that means that the fuel has a good calorific value and can take even further compression with added boost.







Marios

Hi there note that it's to boost we got out of it was by putting a bolt in the wastegate can completely rocking it off it's not opening at all you can put a piece of paper in front of a screamer pipe and it doesn't move. moving the cam timing around changes the exhaust manifold pressure and the power level but doesn't affect the boost.
Wewe are going to check on an old gt42 that the tuna has around the workshop and see what happens, that's not a 5 second job though as it is a different manifold housing and doesn't line up with the intercooler like the turbo that's on there now

Has a leak down test been done? It seems a lot of things have been checked, but you might want to think about having them perform a leak down test to see if the motor is in perfect health. It could be leaking passed the valvetrain.

The engine is brand new, not breathing heavy either, extremely unlikely to be the issue

Changing the cam dial combo, changes the dynamic compression of an engine and thus it affects the way the boost behaves, especially the wgdc. Using the optimum dialing combo in other words increases the V.E of a setup and thus one will need to use more wgdc on the same lbs/in spring to achieve the desired boost level. The reason you see higher exhaust gas velocity and pressure is due to the exhaust gas higher cfm which in turn is due to the increase V.E which happens as I said when you change the dynamic compression of an engine. Also the optimum cam dialing allows you to add more timing to the map. There cannot be added exhaust gas pressure and velocity without added exhaust cfm, and in order to have more exhaust gas cfm means the engine draws in more air. I do not believe your brand new turbosmart wastegate was leaking in the first place and the screw in it was not needed, neither does a single 27psi 45mm wastegate need more than 60%( even with light backpressure issues ,as you say you have none) of duty cycle to be able to hold 43psi of boost. If the wgdc was at 100% and the problem was the leaking wastegate, with the screw in and 100% duty cycle you should be able to hold 53+ psi at least of boost, not just 3psi more. The reason you achieved the extra 3 psi is the cam dialing due to the increased V.E and the alteration of the maps which slightly raised the flow of the turbo. The super 99 on a well prepared setup is at its optimum efficiency range , flow wise between 45-55psi. It can definitely flow above that, but as the pressure ratio goes up, flow goes down.



Eliminate both gates, bov and external, block off everything, and run the setup without any boost control system.

Post up screeshots of fuel and timing maps.







Marios

It only has one gate which for all intents and purposes was completely blocked off as the bolt was stopping the valve from opening, this netted another 3 psi. I agree that the wastegate was not the problem this was just the method to prove it.
the tuner has triple checked the BOV, I have to tread carefully here as I don't want to undermine him.
I'll ask how much ignition timing is in it. This set up is nothing risky or developmental it's all fairly off the shelf and tried and proven.
Forced performance suggested that possibly the ex housing might be to big but again, same set up as many others are running and would it not run out of puff before 43 psi?

Ok so here's an update, the tuner whacked on an old gt42 this is a fairly old turbo running at t4 exhaust housing with a 1.02 rear, it ran 55 pounds of boost no problem at all on went just over 600 kilowatts basically did everything that turbo supposed to do.
Also also he said that it came on about 1800 revs faster.
boost control was all perfect everything worked the way it should so clearly there's a problem with the turbo which is brand new in the box, so either the exhaust ar is just too big and the engine can't spool it up or there's an actual problem with the turbo, any thoughts?

Yes I know you only use one wastegate, I meant bov and wastegate when I said both gates. I also insist that even the 3psi you got was not due to the wastegate, but due to the different cam dialing combo which allowed for better V.E along with the tweaking of the maps. If the leak was that tiny small, it would allow you as I said to run 53+ psi. There was also no need to put that screw there, as if the wastegate was actually leaking, then the boost pressure would flactuate a lot especially up top, and boost would drop in the higher rev range by quite a significant margin. In general the behaviour of boost would highly indicate whether the wastegate was malfunctioning or not.


On post 26, I suggested changing the turbo to something else. After blocking off everything and if the problem persisted, then it should have been turbo change time.


Nevertheless, I am glad you guys got it sorted out. In regards to the turbo, it is not the exhaust housing size. The exhaust housing cm2 area and A/R affects peak power, the velocity,the speed of the exhaust gasses and in general the way exhaust gasses hit the wheel but it does not affect peak boost limit. Boost is the inability of your engine to absorb a certain amount of cfm in a certain way and timing, hence why increasing V.E affects boost greatly. The only way an exhaust housing would affect peak boost, but nothing that would not have been corrected with a stiffer spring and better boost control strategy, would be if the housing was too small for the setup and created a dynamic restriction in the form of backpressure thus pushing the gate to open up, something which would be very apparent in the way boost behaved and would also be shown in the logs.



Enjoy the progression and use of your setup.










Marios

so we got to the bottom of the boost issue.
once the tuner had checked and double checked everything the only option was to start replacing things.
first thing to replace was the turbo, the tuner put in an old GTX42 he had lying around, went straight to 55PSI and made over 600kw no problem.
FP had advised that the exhaust housing may have been to big, tuner put the Xona back on, give it a small shot of NOS to spool the turbo up and it flew to bits.
FP are saying intercooler to small, to prove the point, the tuner pout a gen 2 turbo on, same AR ratio, at 55PSI with the same small NOS shot it made 985whp, 3psi pressure drop across intercooler.
clearly the engine or intake system has no issue.
awaiting FP to respond, interested to hear peoples thoughts here