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Bad news for E85 users

Old Jun 17, 2011 | 01:27 PM
  #16  
evolution2186's Avatar
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Everyone has had the idea that Corn made into Ethanol is aggressively driving up food costs. If you would please stop and ask yourself this question before basing your opinion.

Does the raising price of Corn effect food costs more so then the increasing price of Petroleum?
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Old Jun 17, 2011 | 02:11 PM
  #17  
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From: Falls Church, VA
Originally Posted by evolution2186
Everyone has had the idea that Corn made into Ethanol is aggressively driving up food costs. If you would please stop and ask yourself this question before basing your opinion.

Does the raising price of Corn effect food costs more so then the increasing price of Petroleum?
Since you use petroleum products to fertilize, grow and ship the corn/ethanol?

It's not like it just magically appears from the ground cost-free.


Ten days ago the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons warned that the push by Western governments to increase biofuel production could cause 200,000 deaths in poorer countries. Recently, the New York Times explained, "each year, an ever larger portion of the world’s crops — cassava and corn, sugar and palm oil — is being diverted for biofuels as developed countries pass laws mandating greater use of nonfossil fuels." 7-8 per cent of the world’s cereal crop will be used for biofuels this year.

Growing corn to fuel an average U.S. car takes five times more land than what’s needed to feed a person. According to Earth Policy Institute director Lester Brown, “the grain grown to produce fuel in the U.S. [in 2009] was enough to feed 330 million people for one year at average world consumption levels.”

Between 2005 and 2009 U.S. ethanol production more than tripled. About 10.6 billion gallons of bio-fuel were produced in 2009, which is expected to reach 15 billion gallons next year. By 2022 Washington wants that number to reach 36 billion and they are prepared to subsidize it. In 2010, oil refiners received upwards of $7 billion in federal subsidies for mixing ethanol into gas.

Proponents claim that the next generation of ethanol will depend on large plant matter instead of foodstuff, but there are problems with this plan. Breaking down plant cellulose into fermentable sugars currently requires more energy than it creates. Additionally, tremendous energy is needed to harvest bulky, heavy plant matter and to ship it to ethanol refineries. Over $1 billion in public money has been spent researching more efficient ways of turning plants into cellulose without much success. In October 2010 Grist noted, “for decades, boosters deemed cellulosic ethanol ‘five years way’ from commercial viability. Now its status has been upgraded to ‘within reach.’ Progress!”

Leaving aside the pressure on food prices and resulting malnutrition among the world’s poor, ethanol’s ecological benefits are far from clear. Most studies show that gasoline made from U.S. corn produces about 15 percent less carbon dioxide than conventional gas. Some studies suggest, however, that corn-based ethanol produces more CO2 than oil-based gasoline if all the energy used in the growth phase is properly accounted for. Even if carbon emissions are reduced, ethanol has a variety of drawbacks. It is shipped in energy intensive trucks or trains, takes huge amounts of water to produce and increases air pollutants as well as nitrides and pesticides.


from a nice lefty/greenie source:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/04/16-0

come on guys, even Al Gore jumped off of this ridiculous bandwagon.
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Old Jun 17, 2011 | 02:13 PM
  #18  
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Wait, wasn't the tax credit given to the blender (ie, Oil company) and not the ethanol producers? And since big oil owns most of the politicians, and the credit benefits them, good luck getting it passed in both houses.

I think Brazil serves as proof positive that ethanol can wean a country from the dino-oil nipple. Granted, we don't have as much sugar cane, but there are other viable alternatives and some of the genetic studies on switchgrasses and the likes are significantly raising the ethanol yield per acre.

Also the algae sourced biofuels will probably start to become economically viable over the next decade based on current R&D. All in all, I think we should tariff the hell out of OPEC imports, raise the gasoline/diesel price ceiling and look to domestic sources for supply. This would drive up demand for domestic biofuels and increase domestic crude production. As much as the environmentalists don't like pressure pumping, there's plenty of shale oil to be had in this country (marcellus, eagle ford, bakkken etc).

But as long as we lazy Americans (myself included) continue to complain about the high price of oil and refuse to capitalize on domestic reserves, then we will continue to make OPEC wealthy and have to deal with their supply and demand price impositions. FYI, any increase in oil price is great for me as I'm an Oil and Gas engineer, and reap the trickle down rewards. Right now, business is great, though I would like to see a shift in American thinking on energy independance.
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Old Jun 17, 2011 | 02:15 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by Kracka
For the most part ethanol producers takes corn out of the animal feed supply market (yellow corn #2 to be exact), but in return takes the by-product, called distillers grains, and sells it to the feed yards at a discount to corn. This is really a win-win for both the ethanol producer and the animal feeders.
So it costs more to feed the animals we eat. The rest I don't know anything about.
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Old Jun 17, 2011 | 05:52 PM
  #20  
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As long as E85 remains cheaper that C-16, I will still buy it when I want that bit of extra go.
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Old Jun 17, 2011 | 06:21 PM
  #21  
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subsidies are so wrong. Using up "non" renewable resources. Don't see a problem, use it if its available. They can make more, and it can be done through the market not through government mandate.
CTL, algae, the list of man made replacements for oil is plentiful. The market just needs to know what is going to happen, restrictions, regulations and blinded environmentalists stand between you and inexpensive fuel. (made safely too)

thinking climate change is a problem? might be, because the real threat is global cooling. Cooling is a fare greater challenge.
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Old Jun 17, 2011 | 06:33 PM
  #22  
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Lets see 105 oct. for less than reg. unleaded 87oct. hmmmmmm-seems like a win-win for us if it stays around!!! I've been to other countries and gas prices everywhere else is redunkulus expensive!!!
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Old Jun 17, 2011 | 06:59 PM
  #23  
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From: New Zealand
Just curious, what are paying for fuel in the states?

I'm paying 2.22 NZ$ per litre for 98 RON which comes to around 6.73 US$ per gallon. Our E85 is 2.31 NZ$ per litre which is about 6.98 US$ per gallon. Keeping in mind we don't get subsidies and some (possibly most) of our ethanol is sourced from milk.
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Old Jun 17, 2011 | 07:24 PM
  #24  
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From: digging for oil
1. Main street is trying to get rid of subsidies are nothing more than tax incentives for these companies, why because WE USA are broke we have no money,,, just look at our federal reserve books and you will see for yourself.

2. this was comming for a long time it was not supprisethat this would happne, ethanol did not prove to be more beneficial YET.

3. these companies are leaning towards biofuels, they are cheaper faster to make and cleaner.

4. Who knows we are are being encouraged to be greenies by the current administration, look at all the automotive manufatureres, engineering diciplines are encouraging more and more this new greenie ideas,,, which btw i would love to have my car or suv that gives me 50mpg plus, i would love to have my own solar or clean energy grid ect ect.... guess what we are not there yet and with this delicate economy is not a good time to be dumping money on research, get the economy going and once you have a cash flow make a transition over to cleaner energies
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Old Jun 17, 2011 | 07:36 PM
  #25  
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Ahhhhhhhh!! I come here to stay away from politics! i love both cars and politics but lets leave them separate lol.
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Old Jun 17, 2011 | 08:03 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by dude
Wait, wasn't the tax credit given to the blender (ie, Oil company) and not the ethanol producers? And since big oil owns most of the politicians, and the credit benefits them, good luck getting it passed in both houses.
Exactly, the credits are going to the oil companies, not the ethanol producers and farmers.
Originally Posted by wjamyers
So it costs more to feed the animals we eat. The rest I don't know anything about.
Read the rest of what you quoted, I explained how animal feedyards are benefited from ethanol production, not harmed. I.E. cheaper animal feed.



*for those who care, I'm employed in grain acquisition, risk management, and train logistics for three ethanol plants*

Last edited by Kracka; Jun 17, 2011 at 08:06 PM.
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Old Jun 17, 2011 | 08:14 PM
  #27  
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From: deltona
All this bad news... they just put a new e85 pump 10 miles from my house.
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Old Jun 17, 2011 | 08:22 PM
  #28  
Kracka's Avatar
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I'm just hoping blender pumps eventually go mainstream in North America like they have in Brazil.
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Old Jun 18, 2011 | 07:23 AM
  #29  
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From: Raleigh, Transplanted from Toronto, Canada
I'd run E85 if it was as expensive as 93 (It will be if they get rid of the subsidy). Not as often but I really don't like giving more middle easteren countries my money.

Its just a nice by product to go faster as well. LOL.

And I thought ALL major corporations in America got some form of subsidies fro mthe government.

If subs go for one, they should go for all.
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Old Jun 18, 2011 | 07:46 AM
  #30  
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I can't speak about this personally because NJ refuses (i use the term jokingly) to make E85 available enough to be practical (i think we have 3 pumps in the state), but...

I think people often forget one of the other larger components to fuel price and corn price (other than taxes, subsidies, etc)... the Las Vegas style gambling on prices that happens in the commodities market...

It is amazing, when commodities like fuel were only allowed to have a very small percentage of their market sales be based on speculation (and not actual demand), we never saw such huge price swings (usually in the upward direction). Thanks to the all the scum bags on the exchange and in DC, it is a free-for-all, and the public is always the one who catches the tab.

I miss supply-and-demand style economics...
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