Dyno Crisis II: What's going on?
 

Sorry about the title, but I'm trying to keep this a bit lighter in tone than it's been of late on here.

First off, people are getting a little too worked up about the Dyno Thing. Between gas quality issues, differing dyno's and the small print on MMC's advertised horsepower, the facts still point towards -

the American Evo most likely producing about 271hp

just not in California when running on the piss-water they call premium there. But you should really keep in mind that everybody else in California is running on that gas too. So just suck it up when the Texan's brag about how much more power their cars make, for if they took their car to California, they'd suffer too.

So what's going on with Shiv? Shiv's in California, and testing cars on the water.., I mean, premium gas there.

But what's with all these different dyno figures from reputable tuners? Well, they are still reputable, and so is Shiv. The one constant in life is that different dyno's produce different figures. Yes, that leaves you with no solid ground to stand on when bragging about your cars horsepower. But then, the Evo is about far more than horsepower, otherwise it would be a Camaro. Or a Supra.

I also feel the need to point out that there is still a Honda-derived fetish with horsepower that really, really needs to be put out back of the shed and shot. High horsepower numbers are usually arrived at in the Honda world via high rpm's - because hp is a measurement of torque x rpm's divided by 5252. What that translates to in the real world is the Honda S2000 being able to reach 240hp when it only has some 160ft/lb's of torque. The thing is, the torque is made way, wayyyyy up on the rpm range, allowing the Honda to have some pretty impressive sounding hp numbers. But the truth is that while the Evo "only" makes some 31 odd hp over the S2000, it also makes 110lb/feet of torque over the S2000. It simply doesn't make that torque up at 8000rpm is all.

Thus we move on to why the Evo is going to be faster than the almighty horsepower numbers would suggest - it has torque. It has it a relatively low revs, and it holds it for a relatively long amount of time. That not only gives you flexibility, it gives you acceleration! There is a reason the V8 guys like, well, V8's. 5.0 Mustangs used to be considered fairly quick, yet they only had 215hp. All that meant was that they didn't spin particularly high. Doesn't mean you can't take advantage of the torque down low. Same principle with the Evo, except it does spin relatively high.

Everything I've seen so far from Shiv indicates that their Evo's are making more than decent mid-range torque. The only "problem", per se, is that they are not making the mind-blowing hp numbers that everybody wants to see. Yet the cars are quick - looking to be nearly as quick as the Japanese versions that make much more hp! Why?

Torque, again. The USDM Evo doesn't have the same hp numbers as the JDM Evo, but it does have nearly the same amount of torque. Again, all that is happening here is that the USDM car doesn't produce as much torque at upper rpm's as the JDM Evo does - something definitely affected by gas quality and emission changes. And it must be noted here that, very definitely, the JDM Evo produces about 305hp. Not 276hp as officially claimed on paper. There is information about why this is so, so I won't recap. So the hp difference between the JDM and USDM Evo is indeed about correct - while on paper it's only 6 hp or so, in reality it's about 34hp. Anyways, back on subject. There has been something similar to this in the past - the M3. There was an American version of the M3 that only produced 240hp, and then the European version which produced much more hp. So on first glance, the American version must be slower - but the actual numbers turned out to be quite close. Why? Because the torque figures were not that far apart. The American version simply didn't produce as much high-end hp as the European version, but when it came to acceleration, there wasn't a huge difference, because you accelerate through your mid-range, and the torque there wasn't much different. And in the case of the USDM and JDM Evo, the mid-range torque isn't that much different either.

To wrap it up: Quit'cher whining. The Evo is actually rather good. It's a great value for the money. So enjoy it!

Cheers,

Paul Hansen

Cheers to that brother. This goes best untouched.

:beer:

Excellent post!! :thumbup:

Unfortunately, not everyone who needs this "wake-up call" will get to read it, but hopefully those who do will be able to spread the word.

>8^)
ER

Very very good points... Just to simplify your post for the Honda tuners out there ;) HP Numbers are like comparing your unit's..

What good is a giant brush without paint?? {OMG}

Hey, was that metaphoric enough to avoid getting the post banned??

Excellent post. I have been telling friends for a long time that it's not HP numbers alone that matter. You can have very high HP but either not in a usable range or in a very narrow power band.

I think it's great that we have a few people here who can write well and convey a clear message in their posts.

Well, that and the fact that I tend to agree with Pauls opinions....

SC~

:headbang: awesome post... tnx for the heads up

Although I agree with Paul on his statements, I beg to differ on the thrashing of HOndas. My 2000 type-R was consistently keeping up and passing M3's on Limerock raceway. Even though there wasn't much to do on the straights, she made up for it in the tight corners. Both cars being stock(100%). Hp up top means you will need to stay up top to keep up with the big boys. Sure its a pain in the street, but a Honda engine is still a engineering marvel.

Re: Dyno Crisis II: What's going on?
 

IIRC, didn't the Euro E36 M3 have 6 individual throttle bodies? That would account for some of the hp difference. Not sure how that would affect torque, though. Or... am I thinking of something entirely different??

thats true... my RSX gets dusted by wrx's on the street, but on the Hwys I eat them for breakfast

-Shahul

running the rpms up at redline constantly = thrashing the motor to many people.

I had a type R too. You certainly had to keep the rps above 5500 to get the performance out of it. But some find that as a weakeness of the honda engine. I think it's all about driving style.

SC~

that's the thing. I got used to a free reeving fully balanced engine (hand built also). The type-r engine was smoother and better balanced at 8400 rpm's than most engines at idle. That and the fact that for all the high revs these engines hold up like champs. Oh well, lets bring on the EVO and more boost please :D
EVOLESS IN NY...

Re: Dyno Crisis II: What's going on?
 

Whats going on with shiv - - a few things - first he is a car genious - I have been following his posts on the i-club for two years and I learned a lot about WRX tuning from him and he certainly knows his stuff - - unlike some other WRX tuners - Shiv is very careful and has not blown up any motors to the best of my knowledge - - however

Everyone has his her faults (I certainly know my own) and Shiv is a very excentiric guy in many ways

1 - He is stuck on his eltist "super" dyno which reads totallyu differently than any other US dyno that we are familair with so his numbers don't mean anything

2 - He re-fuses to use any decent gas at all - he is 100% against race gas or any good unleaded premium fuel and he seems to really like 91 piss gas

3 - He sings the praises of what ever he is selling at the moment - just reasearch his past threads on the i-club about the Tec II - - then the unichip and now the ECUTEK - - - he will say that what ever he is selling at that moment is the best - and then trash what you bought from him a few months before

I suggest we all take what ever Shiv says with a grain of salt - keeping the above 3 points in mind and don't forget # 4 - Shiv is doing all of this to make $$$ so his is hardly unbiased

The guy is brilliant but if you labor over every thing he says like he is some car god you are going to loose your sanity

There's really only one thing you need to know about Al and I think it's pretty self-evident... j/k Al :lol:

Cheers
Shiv

PS: "Totally different" = 15% lower

Great post!!! I hope ppl get to read this!!1{thumbup} {blob} {pcfreak}