What makes a coilover GOOD? And the magic of setting up a car with good coilovers....
Jul 10, 2009, 08:39 AM
#1
What makes a coilover GOOD? And the magic of setting up a car with good coilovers....
What I'm trying to get at in this post is that GOOD quality dampers with a proper set-up are fantastic and will shave seconds of your laptime....but i think it's important to know how and why. Not everyone is a techno geek, but you don't really have to be to get the basics down.
By now I think most EVO owners understand some of the advantages and disadvantages behind the "features" you see advertised on a lot of coilovers out there. 36 clicks of adjustment are meaningless if they all suck. And the ability to adjust ride height without affecting preload isn't that great if you only have 75mm of total travel and you're running 8k/6k spring rates. A lot of these things are understood, but some of the real advantages of a GOOD coilover are still a mystery to people.
A lot of these lower end coilovers get the job done for auto-x and light track work. Ride quality isn't great and mid-corner bumps aren't handled well, but you get stiff rates, pillowball mounts, and ride height adjustment for cheap. It seems like a lot of people understand the shortcomings about the lower end coilovers and still get them, which is OKAY. If they match your priorities, then go for it.
MEANWHILE....the "higher end" coilovers are seen as magical dampers with pixie dust in the shock oil that literally make you breakfast as you drive. Really though, they are amazing works of engineering art and are every bit as good as they're made out to be. But how do they do it? What do they do that low end, or even mid-range coilovers can't do well?
And what about the set-up process? A suspension guru puts the car on an alignment rack + scales, waves a magic wand and there you go, camber dialed exactly to match your tire choice and roll resistance, a perfect corner weight, etc. What's actually happening and what's the difference between a decent set-up process and a damn good one?
If you're expecting a quick answer from me.....sorry. I understand a lot of what goes on but I don't build shocks myself, just match people with a suspension set-up that works for them and try to give them the tech support and set-up help they need to go fast. I'm actually looking for your feedback, anecdotes from those who have "made the jump" to the good stuff, and details from the few people on here who actually build shocks. Plus it's lunchtime.
Please keep it civil....don't tell someone their shocks suck.
- Andrew....gonna go try and find JRZ Bryan and see if he really does put pixie dust in his shocks.....
By now I think most EVO owners understand some of the advantages and disadvantages behind the "features" you see advertised on a lot of coilovers out there. 36 clicks of adjustment are meaningless if they all suck. And the ability to adjust ride height without affecting preload isn't that great if you only have 75mm of total travel and you're running 8k/6k spring rates. A lot of these things are understood, but some of the real advantages of a GOOD coilover are still a mystery to people.
A lot of these lower end coilovers get the job done for auto-x and light track work. Ride quality isn't great and mid-corner bumps aren't handled well, but you get stiff rates, pillowball mounts, and ride height adjustment for cheap. It seems like a lot of people understand the shortcomings about the lower end coilovers and still get them, which is OKAY. If they match your priorities, then go for it.
MEANWHILE....the "higher end" coilovers are seen as magical dampers with pixie dust in the shock oil that literally make you breakfast as you drive. Really though, they are amazing works of engineering art and are every bit as good as they're made out to be. But how do they do it? What do they do that low end, or even mid-range coilovers can't do well?
And what about the set-up process? A suspension guru puts the car on an alignment rack + scales, waves a magic wand and there you go, camber dialed exactly to match your tire choice and roll resistance, a perfect corner weight, etc. What's actually happening and what's the difference between a decent set-up process and a damn good one?
If you're expecting a quick answer from me.....sorry. I understand a lot of what goes on but I don't build shocks myself, just match people with a suspension set-up that works for them and try to give them the tech support and set-up help they need to go fast. I'm actually looking for your feedback, anecdotes from those who have "made the jump" to the good stuff, and details from the few people on here who actually build shocks. Plus it's lunchtime.
Please keep it civil....don't tell someone their shocks suck.
- Andrew....gonna go try and find JRZ Bryan and see if he really does put pixie dust in his shocks.....
Last edited by GTWORX.com; Feb 9, 2010 at 06:21 PM.
Jul 10, 2009, 08:50 AM
#2
would you mind listing which coilover setups you consider to be the best for 90% street car, 10% track days? I would like some in car breakfast.
Currently running tein flex which came with my car when I bought it last year, IMO they stink, the travel on them is so short and they dont take MI roads very well.
Currently running tein flex which came with my car when I bought it last year, IMO they stink, the travel on them is so short and they dont take MI roads very well.
Jul 10, 2009, 11:02 AM
#4
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I'll just chime in and say that sometimes I think people will have an unrealistic view of what should be possible with performance suspension.
There is no such thing as a "do-it-all" set-up.
I have quite a bit of experience setting up mountain bike suspension, and will admit that a well designed conventional adjustable damper is an amazing thing!
But a good set-up is a compromise - a winning Auto-X set-up is not going to ride and float like a Cadillac on the street, and vice-versa.
You also have to remember, that even on a well set-up and focused race car, the suspension may handle 90% of the track - but that last 10% - a corner with a few too many stutter bumps, or a big G-out then bumps - it may not handle that "perfectly" so you tweek it the best you can for the driver, track, and vehicle.
There is no such thing as a "do-it-all" set-up.
I have quite a bit of experience setting up mountain bike suspension, and will admit that a well designed conventional adjustable damper is an amazing thing!
But a good set-up is a compromise - a winning Auto-X set-up is not going to ride and float like a Cadillac on the street, and vice-versa.
You also have to remember, that even on a well set-up and focused race car, the suspension may handle 90% of the track - but that last 10% - a corner with a few too many stutter bumps, or a big G-out then bumps - it may not handle that "perfectly" so you tweek it the best you can for the driver, track, and vehicle.
Jul 10, 2009, 11:08 AM
#5
In the end it all has to work as a system. Each component is only as good as the next it relies on. They all have to complete each manuver and input the driver feeds into the steering wheel and throttle/brake. Sadly people are attracted to bright shinny objects and seem to take it in strides. Such an example is you go out and buy a new blueray dvd player, and pair it up with a 20" standard TV. While it might plug in and give you a display with some rigging, it's not "optimal" for that senario. Like Andrew said, Each and every coilover brand, model, option has it's own characteristis which must be taken into consideration, else you'll be stuck with slick looking sloppy ride.
Jul 10, 2009, 05:08 PM
#6
What I'm trying to get at in this post is that GOOD quality dampers with a proper set-up are fantastic and will shave seconds of your laptime....but i think it's important to know how and why. Not everyone is a techno geek, but you don't really have to be to get the basics down.
I would say the first step is teach folks not to get scared when the conversation gets technical. Damper is a technical term -- it's a device to control harmonic motion. Spring is a technical term too -- a device to absorb, store, then release energy. Springs move, you guessed it, harmonically. See? Easy.
By now I think most EVO owners understand some of the advantages and disadvantages behind the "features" you see advertised on a lot of coilovers out there. 36 clicks of adjustment are meaningless if they all blow. And the ability to adjust ride height without affecting preload isn't that great if you only have 75mm of total travel. A lot of these things are understood, but some of the real advantages of a GOOD coilover are still a mystery to people.
The dyno plot of the shock tells you everything (well almost). It's very clear, from an engineering prospective, what an damper is supposed to do. The dyno shows whether it does that.
A lot of these lower end coilovers get the job done for auto-x and light track work. Ride quality isn't great and mid-corner bumps aren't handled well,
After the last SCCA texas national tour, I got a LOT of email about setup for evos. Seriously, it was insane. I had to just start telling people. If you aren't ready to spend $3k, don't bother. Spend less and the parts won't do what you want, and the car will probably get slower -- even if you get faster.
>> more later
donour
Last edited by donour; Oct 28, 2010 at 10:41 AM.
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Jul 12, 2009, 11:34 PM
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good idea for a thread. lets try to get some serious technical information in here from whoever can actually provide it. im always up for learning more about the mechanics of suspension. would like to here others thoughts and ideas without it turning into a "my coils are better" thread like everyone else. subscribed
Jul 13, 2009, 05:18 PM
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IMO, just talking about coilovers really does not give you a complete picture. Many ppl seem to thing that all they have to do is to slap a set of coilovers on the car, and it will drastically improve their handling...
...not necessarily true - point-in-case, so far I have religiously stayed away from getting coilovers for my Evo, and in the process, have somehow managed to eliminate much of the understeer and corner exit push from my car while retaining the stock '03 shocks, springs, open front diff, and swaybars. I am finally getting ready to install a set of Bilstein shocks with Swift Springs, and once I've tested that change, will be moving on to add a set of adjustable swaybars (front and rear) along with playing with the front suspension geometry. For me a coilover will be the very last upgrade and will only be considered if I decide to turn the car into a serious time-attack car. In which case it looks like I'll probably go with JRZ (funds willing).
In any case, I think a discussion of coilovers should at least make a brief reference to all of the other things that affect handling, such as swaybars, bushings, alignment, caster, front/rear differentials, etc.
l8r)
...not necessarily true - point-in-case, so far I have religiously stayed away from getting coilovers for my Evo, and in the process, have somehow managed to eliminate much of the understeer and corner exit push from my car while retaining the stock '03 shocks, springs, open front diff, and swaybars. I am finally getting ready to install a set of Bilstein shocks with Swift Springs, and once I've tested that change, will be moving on to add a set of adjustable swaybars (front and rear) along with playing with the front suspension geometry. For me a coilover will be the very last upgrade and will only be considered if I decide to turn the car into a serious time-attack car. In which case it looks like I'll probably go with JRZ (funds willing).
In any case, I think a discussion of coilovers should at least make a brief reference to all of the other things that affect handling, such as swaybars, bushings, alignment, caster, front/rear differentials, etc.
l8r)