Ludikraut

iTrader: (17)

Its simple, really. Nobody has done a full aero undertray. Splitters and wings will at best get a brick like the Evo to where it doesn't generate overall lift. A flat underbody does very little, if anything to generate downforce. At best it might eliminate a little bit of drag. You need a properly configured tunnel under the car to generate real downforce. It's not that difficult ... as a matter of fact it's so easy and so effective that it has been banned or severly regulated in all professional racing series. IMO to get a decent undertray, you don't need a wind-tunnel (leave that for the fine tuning) and you don't need a car that almost scrapes the tarmac, you just need some long straights where you can test the basic effect. Once you've got that, you can then turn towards adjusting your suspension to work with the newly gained downforce.

l8r)

Bryan at JRZUSA

What's possible with those cars goes far beyond under trays, diffusers, splitters, and rear wings. The rules are unlimited. Its going to be a cost/benefit deal for these teams. But theres no reason one couldn't make prototype downforce with one of these shells.

Back on topic:

I haven't run much of the competitors stuff on the dyno or worked with them on a car but from what I've seen they're approaching damping from a different angle than we do. Without much experience I can't say much in the way of good or bad. Even if I did, professionally I wouldn't go and throw someones product under the bus without a very good reason.

20psiMR

iTrader: (6)

B, I dont think thats what Drew was getting at. I know he is a fan of the KW's, and he has helped me with the ones I bought off you quite a bit. They do custom springs for V3's and he has them in his sig, so that should tell you something hehe. I believe the focus is on the megan/bc racing/tein crowd. Japanese coilovers, with the exception of Ohlins of course, are just FTL.

Appauldd

iTrader: (22)

Upgrading the suspensions is the natural pogression of the common "tuner". The problem is that man have no idea about what affect the car will incur after the coil over instll. Yes, as stated above, there is adjustability out the wazoo, but rarely are COs used for their true purpose.

I learned the hard way... gone from "oh those STech springs give a great drop" only to realize they my struts blow out quickly and the car handles like poop. Then I went back to stock suspension and....learned to drive it the right way. Added a rear sway bar to help with the understeer problem. Highly recommend this as it works like a dream.

At this point the car became more fun to drive because I was able to push it a little harder. Then I made the switch to coil overs.....big mistake. The COs were JICFLA2 and although many claim them to be a great component.....they simply have no longevity. If I had a dedicated track car then the CO might have proved worth while. But, since my car is driven nearly daily....CO's reguardless of how "good" just are not proctical.

I believe the definition of a "good" coil over is one that the user fully understands its adjustments, and its purpose. Rarely does a CO owner push their car to the full potential of the suspension. With that.....suspension won't amount to a hill of beans without the right tire for the condition.

What I am getting at is that no matter how "good" a coil over set up is, if the user does not use them for their engineered purpose.....you are wasting your time and money.

Mitsubishi designed the EVO to be a great handeling car right out of the box. So much so that it rivals many "supercars".

The end result is that we all use our cars differently. Some want to spen several thousand dollars to keep the highest performance parts on their car while others will keep it stock. Never-the-less, we all enjoy the car.

GTWORX.com

iTrader: (35)

I do think KW V3s are one of the better options in that price range for a specific use, BUT they do have limitations that become more apparent as the car becomes more serious with stickier tires and more spring rate. The KW competition units do better there, but then you have other great options too like Bryan's JRZs.

I try not to be a "fan" and remain objective but i guess it's hard sometimes. This thread is really more to show people what you get with a high end coilover and the support that comes with it, not necessarily to show how bad the cheaper ones are.

Can you imagine going to a "power" tuner shop and having a suspension talk like this?

- drew

javip1986

the evo comes with really stiff suspension. I was looking for something softer. Otherwise my girlfriend's fake tittties are gonna jump out the window.

WolvieDC

stopid noob question here about what constitutes "real downforce"

my understanding is that functional rear and front spoilers or underbody wings generate downforce on the car improving handling and grip at higher speeds.

does "real downforce" refer to the amount of down force generated by functional components fails to exceed the lift generated by the body acting as a wing at at speed?

GTWORX.com

iTrader: (35)

I think Bryan said a coefficient of lift from -.5 to -2.0.

This is a good point....i see people replace their worn out stock suspension with coilovers just because they all coilovers are automatically better for everything, and it ends up being a poor match for them. On the other hand we've had people come in to the shop wanting Motons and they've only done 1 track day. We told them they need to slow down but they end up going someplace else because it's not what they want to hear.


- andrew

Ludikraut

iTrader: (17)

I suppose that's a rather vague term, isn't it. Basically what I'm saying is a car that is capable of creating overall downforce, not just enough to eliminate the inherent lift or to balance over/understeer.

As far as the suspension discussion of this thread goes ... if we were to stack up many of the coilovers out there, especially in the lower price segments (let's say $2500 and under), against the Swift spring/bilstein shock combo, how would they really fare? In other words, is an entry level coilover really any kind of significant upgrade over a good spring/strut setup?

The more I research suspension bits, the more I'm leaning towards skipping the entry/mid range coilovers altogether.

l8r)

unowned

iTrader: (2)

one of the biggest advantages of high end coilovers vs med to low end coilovers is what happens when heat builds up in the shock due to very high activity. does the damping stay consistent when lots of heat builds up? This is why most people do not need anything advanced on the street, you do not build up enough heat where the coilovers become heat soaked.

Jeff_Jeske

iTrader: (66)

^ Most serious racers either have seriously expensive suspension or seriously stiff springs which provide 99% of the end result.

Who is the audience of this thread? Is it the weekend warrior and daily driver? Is it the guy that doesn't want to feel every crack in the pavement? In terms of results are we talking compliance or performance? How competitive is the audience... put that in terms of $$$$ willing to be spent.

This has been hashed out over and over again..... motons, penski, KW comp, ohlins, bla bla bla......

I've found most people in this forum, not the motorsports forum) are gonna buy cheap, brag about it, never track their car, then crash it or sell it in the next year.

sscottttt

iTrader: (4)

This is the route I went since I'm not ready to spend the big bucks for good coilovers so I picked up a set of Swift Spec-R's and old MR Bilsteins and sent them out to be revalved to match the spring rates. With the amount of driving I do with this car daily year round it wouldn't make sense to buy a set of coilovers.

As far as coilovers go though it seems pretty well established that most people (95-99%) don't need them. The focus of this discussion should be for those 5% or so that really do, those that track their cars competitively, since it's useless to try to figure out whats best for someone who doesn't need it. As I see it the criteria for a good coilover should be:
- Consistent dampening from shock to shock and adjustment to adjustment
- Independent compression and rebound adjustment
- Dampening appropriate for the desired spring rates
- The ability to be revalved and dynoed to match spring changes

dbsears

iTrader: (37)

Well I am coming from Swifts with Bilstein and a 25mm Perrin bar to custom valved Ohlins for just a smidge over $2500. I have seen the difference and let me tell you its there. Maybe not always new but their are plenty of options $2000-2500 that will do most everything better. Swifts are okay for mild tracking...been there done that. Too much brake dive, relatively soft, car will still understeer for the most part with the spring rates. A big rear bar helps the car too an extent...I lifted an inside tire quite often at the track though with the bar in the middle. I still like it though and it took me along time to find something I fealt would give me what I want. I agree 110% just skipping low to mid level coilovers. I consider KW's to be a bare minimum. For the price point you can pick up a nice set of Ohlins for I don't think there is really anything better until you start stepping up to $5k+ coilovers.

Ludikraut

iTrader: (17)

I'm not worried about understeer. I'm still stock on my '03, and I've pretty much eliminated most of the understeer already (mostly due to the TRE rear diff). Brake dive I can see being better with the higher rate springs of a CO. Am I correct in assuming that some of the side-to-side leaning would be reduced with stiffer swaybars front and back?

l8r)

RaNGVR-4

iTrader: (4)

In my mind, simply:
A "good" coilover is one which can control the movement of the suspension through accurate and effective damping.

I see so many coilovers on cars at events and on the street with the cars just bouncing and bobbing around. The dampers cannot control the springs or the movement of the car.

Then you see the few whos setup just obviously works better, the car is settled. It sometimes looks slower, theres nothing spectacular about how the cars are moving. But its always faster.

So, id say that a good coilover has good damping. and this comes from what you all have already stated.