03whitegsr

iTrader: (8)

I think you misunderstood the information on that site. He makes very little argument against the fact that adjusters CAN work. He simply provides his experience in that MOST adjusters are not consistent enough to be usable for actual adjustments. He does say you can use them effectively to match up dampers on the dyno. However, if you use a quality damper in the first place, they are well matched anyway because they have tight manufacturing tolerances and good quality control.

There lies the problem. Do you think your *** dyno is really fine tuned enough to pick out when one front shock needs to be on "setting 6" and the other front shock needs to be on "setting 27" to produce the same damping curve because there is a micro machining mark on the adjustment needle that is killing flow in one shock? Putting these 2 shocks on the same setting would not produce the same damping curves, and that is NORMAL on MOST shocks. You'd never know it without proper testing though and most guys simply don't have the ability to do that kind of testing.



A big jump indeed. Particularly considering he didn't make that jump.

Adjusting high quality parts that have been tested heavily to show exact damping curves on a given shock is considerably different then cranking the knob on your Megan Race coilover. On one shock, you know going to setting 9 produces exactly XXX curve. On the Megan, you might be increasing forces...or you might not. Look around on the net for charts man, you can find a ton of examples where adjusters will increase high speed but actually reduce low speed forces. Or charts where settings 1-23 do nothing at all, then setting 24 increases forces 10 fold. Not all adjusters are created equally and even fewer do what you actually think they do.


For the record, I have Chinese junk that was pulled apart, revalved with better oil and then dyno matched...supposedly...
And after 14k of use, both front struts had to be replaced due to shaft wear (low quality materials) and the adjusters froze up. Never again will I buy Chinese junk. If I had the money, I'd buy Ohlins. I'm more likely to piece together a custom Bilstein setup though because I like to do things the hard way.

Shiroi Kitsune

iTrader: (1)

There seems to be some confusion that I'm claiming megans, k sport, ect are worth while. I'm not. I just don't believe that a portion of good respectable options are being given their due. Companies like tein, hks, stance, etc all make good quality products that are being used in competition around the world.

Of course all dampers are not going to be perfectly matched, but again we're not driving F1 cars here and 99% of us are no more than self supported hobbyists. And no, my but dyno may not be able to tell a minute difference, but it'll tell one big enough to effect the cars balance.

Most of us are not racing on perfectly prepared tracks. We're driving on the streets, parking lots, and low buck road courses. You think on surfaces like this a 5% difference in dampening force between left and right really matter? Again i'm just asking that we all be realistic.

I think what makes a coilover good is reliability, support, options, and quality. Perfect tolerences and dyno matching may make a coilover incredible, but that wasn't the topic of the thread and for the vast majority of us is overkill.

03whitegsr

iTrader: (8)

I'm not saying there is a 5% difference per shock though. I'm saying there is a 50% difference on the low grade stuff...

I would also agree with DG on the fact that adjusting shocks to change the balance of the car is the wrong way to go about things. Dampers are there to damp the system. The balance of the system should be controlled by spring rate, roll center, track width, etc. and not the damper.

As for the $1000-$2000 range stuff you are talking about, the biggest issue IMO is that nobody services them in the USA. Most of them have lousy spring rates on them so you need to add the price of new springs to their base price and then somehow get them revalved to match the new rates. I would agree, if you could get them with the rates you want and valved for it, they can perform decently. That's exactly what I did. I found a place that took those cheap parts, pieced them together to my specs and valved them to match. Handling wise, they worked reasonably well.

They just corroded and wore out due to lousy materials and craftsmanship. I've seen several sets of Tiens blow out seals within 15k miles too.

For $2k, you can get some decent stuff with good rates and valving. $3k gets you considerably better shocks. But you are right, at that point, can the driver actually use that difference?

Even then though, I think you can really only expect 15k miles out of them before they should be freshened up as well. It's likely just a fluid and seal change though and not worn shafts and bodies.

Shiroi Kitsune

iTrader: (1)

I agree with you on the Megans, BCs, etc. At that point your going backwards from stock. I'm talking more the upper end of HKS's, Tein's, and Stance's range.

I further agree that dampers shouldn't be used to set the balance, they should be used to fine tune it. Hence the point of the adjustable damper.

Also, I'm not talking about the $1k-$2k stuff per say. Think more maybe $2k-$3k. I really feel it's not until this point that you start to better something like a stock damper with swifts and hats.

As far as the spring selection, even most of the "A Grade" out of the box coilovers come with terrible rates, so I don't think that can be attributed to just the mid range guys.

Freshen-ups are really just basic maintenance. Here in America we seem to have the idea that you should be able to drop a part in your car and never have to touch it again. For dampers, diffs, etc. these kind of services should be a routine project, especially on a performance car.

Ludikraut

iTrader: (17)

Personally I think the balance should be adjusted via adjustable swaybars and differential settings, not the shocks. Shocks should be a one and done type of thing. It might be nice to be able to reliably and predictably adjust shocks to account for smoother vs. bumpier tracks, but that would really be fine tuning to the nth degree and would only be meaningful to a driver that can consistently hit lap times to within a tenth of a second or so.

l8r)

03whitegsr

iTrader: (8)

I think we are on the same page for the most part.

I've just seen tons of Tien struts fail in short periods of time. They were the lower end Tiens though. The higher grade stuff could be significantly better. When those struts went bad, they had to be sent back to Tien at the time and there was no revalve option.

HKS I have no experience with, but it seems like they would be very difficult to be serviced?

Stance...honestly, I hadn't looked at Stance much at all before this thread. Anybody know if they base their inverted monotubes off of somebody else’s stuff? If they are Bilstein inserts in their housings, I'd agree, they could be a very good option. If it's their own strut though and they are the only place to get them rebuilt and revalved, it's a mark against them.


To reinforce what you said, Performance Shock told me to plan on 12k miles between basic rebuilds on Ohlins. The spring rates is the big problem I've had with sucking it up an buying Ohlins. $3200 and then you have to pay $400 for new springs and like $300 for a revalve. You are now almost to $4k out the door.

I still disagree with the merits of an adjustable shock though at the amateur level.

bboylegit

iTrader: (2)

thought this was useful