Swift Springs long term review.
Oct 10, 2010, 11:39 AM
#18
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I actually have an email from them before I bought these springs. Here is the info on the differences. there is a picture attached let me upload it onto my photobucket and post it.
Hi Albert.
We really appreciate you looking into our Swift Spec R springs for the Evo. We have put a lot of effort into these springs, and we have received help from the most winning Super Taikyu teams that specializes in EVO’s in Japan to design these springs as well as rigorous track testing, so that we can come out with the most performance oriented product possible. We are extremely confident that you would like them.
As for the differences between the MR(4M017R) and the GSR(4M008R) springs. There is a slight difference between the GSR and the MR spring but it will be noticeable if they are installed. If you were to put an MR spring onto your GSR then the rear end will drop even lower by about 15-20 mill. And vice versa if you were to swap the GSR onto the MR.
When we tested the valving on the both MR and GSR shocks, the main differences were the gas pressures in the Bilstein shock for the MR. It has a fair amount higher pressure, which is like increasing the internal spring rate of the shock. This is why we designed the spring differently for the MR shock. It is not only the spring rates that were modified but the physical construction of the spring as well.
primary rate is as follows.
4M008R 3.50kgf/mm
4M017R 2.73kgf/mm
Most of our technical information is confidential , but here are a few numbers that I can show you.
Many other manufacturer’s have one set of springs for both MR and GSR and so it may seem like the springs can be swapped around but this is incorrect. Believe It or not rake angle dramatically affects the performance of a vehicle. We have come up with our setup through a lot of testing, and trial and error.
This paired with our technology and material used to make our spring, we expect an extremely comfortable ride with a good amount of performance gains.
I have attached pictures of the spring to show you at least the physical differences.
Best Regards,
Sales
Tel: (909)923-9788
Fax: (909)923-9798
Swift Springs
1850 S. Carlos Ave
Ontario, California 91761
www.SwiftSprings.com
Hi Albert.
We really appreciate you looking into our Swift Spec R springs for the Evo. We have put a lot of effort into these springs, and we have received help from the most winning Super Taikyu teams that specializes in EVO’s in Japan to design these springs as well as rigorous track testing, so that we can come out with the most performance oriented product possible. We are extremely confident that you would like them.
As for the differences between the MR(4M017R) and the GSR(4M008R) springs. There is a slight difference between the GSR and the MR spring but it will be noticeable if they are installed. If you were to put an MR spring onto your GSR then the rear end will drop even lower by about 15-20 mill. And vice versa if you were to swap the GSR onto the MR.
When we tested the valving on the both MR and GSR shocks, the main differences were the gas pressures in the Bilstein shock for the MR. It has a fair amount higher pressure, which is like increasing the internal spring rate of the shock. This is why we designed the spring differently for the MR shock. It is not only the spring rates that were modified but the physical construction of the spring as well.
primary rate is as follows.
4M008R 3.50kgf/mm
4M017R 2.73kgf/mm
Most of our technical information is confidential , but here are a few numbers that I can show you.
Many other manufacturer’s have one set of springs for both MR and GSR and so it may seem like the springs can be swapped around but this is incorrect. Believe It or not rake angle dramatically affects the performance of a vehicle. We have come up with our setup through a lot of testing, and trial and error.
This paired with our technology and material used to make our spring, we expect an extremely comfortable ride with a good amount of performance gains.
I have attached pictures of the spring to show you at least the physical differences.
Best Regards,
Sales
Tel: (909)923-9788
Fax: (909)923-9798
Swift Springs
1850 S. Carlos Ave
Ontario, California 91761
www.SwiftSprings.com
I installed the springs on my car using the stock KYB struts and noticed my car had an extremely saggy butt. I couldn't figure out why the rear sat so much lower than the front and why my car had a different stance than the other cars I've seen with the Spec-R springs. This all makes sense now.
So, besides the lower rear, would running the MR springs on GSR struts cause any other issues? I track my car frequently (mainly auto-x) and don't want to run these springs any longer if they are not set up to work properly with my struts.. also, if I were to get Bilsteins, would the rear still sit lower or is the length of the actual strut different thus evening out the ride height?
Last edited by evo3gsx; Oct 10, 2010 at 11:43 AM.
Oct 10, 2010, 01:20 PM
#20
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Thanks for the quick response.. still, this pisses me off the company didn't tell me of the ride height difference. I've been bothered by the uneven ride height since I installed the springs, I may end up contacting this company to see what they can do for me.
Oct 11, 2010, 03:57 AM
#21
I actually have an email from them before I bought these springs. Here is the info on the differences. there is a picture attached let me upload it onto my photobucket and post it.
Hi Albert.
We really appreciate you looking into our Swift Spec R springs for the Evo. We have put a lot of effort into these springs, and we have received help from the most winning Super Taikyu teams that specializes in EVO’s in Japan to design these springs as well as rigorous track testing, so that we can come out with the most performance oriented product possible. We are extremely confident that you would like them.
As for the differences between the MR(4M017R) and the GSR(4M008R) springs. There is a slight difference between the GSR and the MR spring but it will be noticeable if they are installed. If you were to put an MR spring onto your GSR then the rear end will drop even lower by about 15-20 mill. And vice versa if you were to swap the GSR onto the MR.
When we tested the valving on the both MR and GSR shocks, the main differences were the gas pressures in the Bilstein shock for the MR. It has a fair amount higher pressure, which is like increasing the internal spring rate of the shock. This is why we designed the spring differently for the MR shock. It is not only the spring rates that were modified but the physical construction of the spring as well.
primary rate is as follows.
4M008R 3.50kgf/mm
4M017R 2.73kgf/mm
Most of our technical information is confidential , but here are a few numbers that I can show you.
Many other manufacturer’s have one set of springs for both MR and GSR and so it may seem like the springs can be swapped around but this is incorrect. Believe It or not rake angle dramatically affects the performance of a vehicle. We have come up with our setup through a lot of testing, and trial and error.
This paired with our technology and material used to make our spring, we expect an extremely comfortable ride with a good amount of performance gains.
I have attached pictures of the spring to show you at least the physical differences.
Best Regards,
Sales
Tel: (909)923-9788
Fax: (909)923-9798
Swift Springs
1850 S. Carlos Ave
Ontario, California 91761
www.SwiftSprings.com
Hi Albert.
We really appreciate you looking into our Swift Spec R springs for the Evo. We have put a lot of effort into these springs, and we have received help from the most winning Super Taikyu teams that specializes in EVO’s in Japan to design these springs as well as rigorous track testing, so that we can come out with the most performance oriented product possible. We are extremely confident that you would like them.
As for the differences between the MR(4M017R) and the GSR(4M008R) springs. There is a slight difference between the GSR and the MR spring but it will be noticeable if they are installed. If you were to put an MR spring onto your GSR then the rear end will drop even lower by about 15-20 mill. And vice versa if you were to swap the GSR onto the MR.
When we tested the valving on the both MR and GSR shocks, the main differences were the gas pressures in the Bilstein shock for the MR. It has a fair amount higher pressure, which is like increasing the internal spring rate of the shock. This is why we designed the spring differently for the MR shock. It is not only the spring rates that were modified but the physical construction of the spring as well.
primary rate is as follows.
4M008R 3.50kgf/mm
4M017R 2.73kgf/mm
Most of our technical information is confidential , but here are a few numbers that I can show you.
Many other manufacturer’s have one set of springs for both MR and GSR and so it may seem like the springs can be swapped around but this is incorrect. Believe It or not rake angle dramatically affects the performance of a vehicle. We have come up with our setup through a lot of testing, and trial and error.
This paired with our technology and material used to make our spring, we expect an extremely comfortable ride with a good amount of performance gains.
I have attached pictures of the spring to show you at least the physical differences.
Best Regards,
Sales
Tel: (909)923-9788
Fax: (909)923-9798
Swift Springs
1850 S. Carlos Ave
Ontario, California 91761
www.SwiftSprings.com
Oct 11, 2010, 05:48 AM
#22
The part in bold dominated my concerns from almost the day I bought this car. I finally got over the objection and planned to install a set of springs that aren't specific to the KYBs or the Bilsteins for next season. Now I see this note from Swift and a pic illustrating the physical differences bringing me back to square-1. To be honest, I'll probably never buy the Swifts, as they lower the car a little too much for my needs, but now I'm not so sure about changing out the springs, period. It's a matter of confidence or more accurately its lack thereof.
Oct 11, 2010, 06:11 AM
#23
2. I live in Upstate, NY and it's not like I stay off the throttle. The drop would make me slow down (at times), which completely defeats the purpose of a high-performance "upgrade."
Really, I don't mind staying with the stock springs. Even if my lap times improve, the few times a year the car sees a competitive environment aren't enough to justify hassle and the daily compromises. I don't compete to win or even score well; I do it to improve my skill as a pilot.
Getting back to springs, why haven't we seen any empirical, comparative testing? We've had folks change springs and dial-in the respective setups. Where is the data? AFAIK, only one person actually took the time to post some comparative impressions, supported by his lap times, running Swifts, GTWorx, and WORKS springs on the same car, same track, same driver. With that in mind, I think that some can understand the concerns.
Oct 11, 2010, 06:25 AM
#24
The ability to get 3 cars setup exactly the same or have the time to swap out suspensions 3x is pretty slim. That data is in the amount of people (qualitative v. emperical) that are running and racing on the Swifts/GTWorx/Robi.
FJF - you have stated many times that you are not going to change your suspension. You like the rally version of the car. Some like the tarmac version. Time to move on.
We know from data (racing and testing by users and Swift/GTWorx) and setup calculations what will work and what wont work. We also have had people run these against other cars (and suspensions) within class for SCCA/NASA with great results.
FJF - you have stated many times that you are not going to change your suspension. You like the rally version of the car. Some like the tarmac version. Time to move on.
We know from data (racing and testing by users and Swift/GTWorx) and setup calculations what will work and what wont work. We also have had people run these against other cars (and suspensions) within class for SCCA/NASA with great results.
Last edited by Noize; Oct 11, 2010 at 05:46 PM.
Oct 11, 2010, 06:46 AM
#26
That data is in the amount of people (qualitative v. emperical) that are running and racing on the Swifts/GTWorx/Robi.
FJF - you have stated many times that you are not going to change your suspension. Nothing harsh here. But we get it. You like the rally version of the car. Some like the tarmac version. Your opinion is noted. Time to move on.
We know from data (racing and testing by users and Swift/GTWorx) and setup calculations what will work and what wont work. We also have had people run these against other cars (and suspensions) within class for SCCA/NASA with great results.
Last edited by Noize; Oct 11, 2010 at 05:40 PM.
Oct 11, 2010, 07:50 PM
#28
Not 3 cars; 1 car. Hell, I'd take almost anything from a credible source other than some hardware specs that mean nothing to me. Like I said, someone did do a comparison (easily found with Search) and was promptly attacked by everyone and his grandmother. In a (err...) normal market environment it's up to the manufacturer to illustrate the goodness of his product. That's not really happening, either, though I bet it would if we as a group demanded it.
I didn't post to argue any of this.
As noted, I was ready to buy a set of springs, and I've posted to that effect in several threads over the last few months. I'm no suspension expert. Even though I like to think of myself as a fairly bright guy, I don't have the knowledge to evaluate products as they sit on the drawing board. The email from Swift and the pic showing the difference in the spring throws a lot of into doubt, and we'd be doing no one a serve by ignoring it.
Please post the comparative data. FWIW, the one guy who actually took the time found Swift to be the quickest in his application.
I didn't post to argue any of this.
As noted, I was ready to buy a set of springs, and I've posted to that effect in several threads over the last few months. I'm no suspension expert. Even though I like to think of myself as a fairly bright guy, I don't have the knowledge to evaluate products as they sit on the drawing board. The email from Swift and the pic showing the difference in the spring throws a lot of into doubt, and we'd be doing no one a serve by ignoring it.
Please post the comparative data. FWIW, the one guy who actually took the time found Swift to be the quickest in his application.
How many people have run the Swifts/GTWorx/Robi and have done well? More than a handful. I can post a big Winged Warrior trophy myself if you'd like. I am not going to search and post all the threads that have qualitative results for you.
Todays world - it is up to the consumer to be well educated. I do welcome all who want to know to search and read.
Now, you are a bright guy. You get all the math and testing that has gone into the 3 major springs I've listed. But bench racing can only get you so far...well about as far as the bench goes. Each spring has its own thoughts to tackle the platform. Which is best for you? Depends. I would recommend the GTWorx since they have more travel and clearance for rally type driving.
I talked with Swift today actually. We will be getting the most current information here on this subject. I am looking forward to it too.
Oct 12, 2010, 12:05 AM
#29
Bilsteins have a decent amount of gas pressure and they always have on most cars they've been available for. That can in some cases affect ride height. It's been like that for ages. For our GTWORX springs, we chose to dial in the ride height first for the KYB struts knowing that the Bilsteins would be just a tiny bit taller. The difference is minor...check out the pictures of our springs on customer's cars. Our springs do not sag with either damper and the rake is within millimeters of where we want it to be. To us
Everything affects ride height on these cars and rarely are 2 cars exactly the same....your alignment, your shocks, sound systems, what you had for breakfast, etc.
As for the performance of Swifts vs. GTWORX vs. Robi.....to be quite honest it is going to be very close. We've done our best to explain the suspension theory of why we went with a more mild drop and use fairly firm spring rates but it is very much a driver's race between them. There is definitely time to be had upgrading to a good set of springs... and compared to S-techs, the difference is pretty massive...
There is a larger potential difference in lap times between coilovers because the dampers are different and there is a lot of time to be found dialing those in. Which is why if your really need to extract the best from your car (for competition) a customized height adjustable coilover is the best bet if you can afford it. If you really really need to dial in your ride height perfectly down to the millimeter and corner balance the car, you will want height adjustable coilovers.
The important things we focused on with our springs was maintaining adequate suspension travel and good suspension geometry through a mild drop and nice, firm spring rates that match valving of both the KYBs and the Bilsteins and work well on the track, auto-x, and street with our real world bumpy crappy roads and tracks we have in the USA. We also didn't want to drastically change the standard rake of the car, but suspension travel was the driving force behind our drop. Looks were not a consideration. Running our springs on the Bilsteins simply adds a few mm of ride height, which is a good thing to be honest.
Our GTWORX springs perform well and Swift Sports and Spec Rs perform well. See SmikeEVO's trophy room and we've got plenty of auto-crossers who've done well regionally too (TouringBubble comes to mind). I really don't know much about Robi's but I assume he did a good job.
We've sold a lot of Swifts and I remember making a big push to get people to try them out when we first came on board here. There weren't as many shops carrying them. No one really believed an EVO with springs, a few bushings, and a swaybar could handle well but we did our best to change that line of thinking by setting people up with the Swift sports. We eventually designed our own springs and went with a more mild drop for different geometry and more suspension travel but I've always been careful about saying "ours are better." If you want a mild drop, get ours. If you really want the bigger drop, get the Swifts.
- Andrew
Everything affects ride height on these cars and rarely are 2 cars exactly the same....your alignment, your shocks, sound systems, what you had for breakfast, etc.
As for the performance of Swifts vs. GTWORX vs. Robi.....to be quite honest it is going to be very close. We've done our best to explain the suspension theory of why we went with a more mild drop and use fairly firm spring rates but it is very much a driver's race between them. There is definitely time to be had upgrading to a good set of springs... and compared to S-techs, the difference is pretty massive...
There is a larger potential difference in lap times between coilovers because the dampers are different and there is a lot of time to be found dialing those in. Which is why if your really need to extract the best from your car (for competition) a customized height adjustable coilover is the best bet if you can afford it. If you really really need to dial in your ride height perfectly down to the millimeter and corner balance the car, you will want height adjustable coilovers.
The important things we focused on with our springs was maintaining adequate suspension travel and good suspension geometry through a mild drop and nice, firm spring rates that match valving of both the KYBs and the Bilsteins and work well on the track, auto-x, and street with our real world bumpy crappy roads and tracks we have in the USA. We also didn't want to drastically change the standard rake of the car, but suspension travel was the driving force behind our drop. Looks were not a consideration. Running our springs on the Bilsteins simply adds a few mm of ride height, which is a good thing to be honest.
Our GTWORX springs perform well and Swift Sports and Spec Rs perform well. See SmikeEVO's trophy room and we've got plenty of auto-crossers who've done well regionally too (TouringBubble comes to mind). I really don't know much about Robi's but I assume he did a good job.
We've sold a lot of Swifts and I remember making a big push to get people to try them out when we first came on board here. There weren't as many shops carrying them. No one really believed an EVO with springs, a few bushings, and a swaybar could handle well but we did our best to change that line of thinking by setting people up with the Swift sports. We eventually designed our own springs and went with a more mild drop for different geometry and more suspension travel but I've always been careful about saying "ours are better." If you want a mild drop, get ours. If you really want the bigger drop, get the Swifts.
- Andrew
Last edited by GTWORX.com; Oct 12, 2010 at 08:13 AM.
