Poor throttle pedal tables leading to premature clutch death?
Jun 12, 2009, 08:07 AM
#1
Poor throttle pedal tables leading to premature clutch death?
So when playing around in ECUFlash, one of the things that really sticks out at me is how "poorly" (in "" because it's my opinion, not necessarily a fact) the throttle pedal tables are used in the stock rom.
Look at all that white space on the right. Basically the throttle pedal is sensed to be 100% down when it's only 55-60% down (and all the way to the floor).
The pedal basically becomes an on-off switch and for people that aren't used to doing anything more than gas-mash with a throttle cable car, they have a hard time adjusting to this rev happy gas pedal and thus they smoke their clutch by inadvertently engaging it with too much gas (in addition to how stupid high the clutch engages).
When I first met Richard with EvolutionDynamics, he told me the *first* thing he did was to remap his throttle pedal tables because he felt like he wasn't in control of the car. Last night we applied these tables to my map.
Notice how it's much more linear and it uses more of the map?
Of course, after driving the car the way it is stock for a year, I had a lot of relearning to do, mostly because what used to be a lot of throttle, no longer is. upshifts are a little weird (like someone learning to drive stick, not enough gas for the 6 puck clutch), but stops from starts, hills (yes, we have little hills here in Dallas
), slow driving (ie. parking lots), etc. do seem to be a LOT easier. I thought that heel toe shifting would be affected as well, but I didn't have any problems heel toeing last night or this morning.
The nice thing is, around town, maintaining speed seems to be easier, since subtle adjustments to the throttle don't result in big increases in speed any more (although with the new tune, there is more power
). We'll see this weekend if the remapped throttle position allows me better control over the car at the autocross (which can have a nice mix of partial throttle feathering as well as full throttle blasts).
Look at all that white space on the right. Basically the throttle pedal is sensed to be 100% down when it's only 55-60% down (and all the way to the floor).
The pedal basically becomes an on-off switch and for people that aren't used to doing anything more than gas-mash with a throttle cable car, they have a hard time adjusting to this rev happy gas pedal and thus they smoke their clutch by inadvertently engaging it with too much gas (in addition to how stupid high the clutch engages).
When I first met Richard with EvolutionDynamics, he told me the *first* thing he did was to remap his throttle pedal tables because he felt like he wasn't in control of the car. Last night we applied these tables to my map.
Notice how it's much more linear and it uses more of the map?
Of course, after driving the car the way it is stock for a year, I had a lot of relearning to do, mostly because what used to be a lot of throttle, no longer is. upshifts are a little weird (like someone learning to drive stick, not enough gas for the 6 puck clutch), but stops from starts, hills (yes, we have little hills here in Dallas
), slow driving (ie. parking lots), etc. do seem to be a LOT easier. I thought that heel toe shifting would be affected as well, but I didn't have any problems heel toeing last night or this morning.The nice thing is, around town, maintaining speed seems to be easier, since subtle adjustments to the throttle don't result in big increases in speed any more (although with the new tune, there is more power
). We'll see this weekend if the remapped throttle position allows me better control over the car at the autocross (which can have a nice mix of partial throttle feathering as well as full throttle blasts).
Last edited by goofygrin; Jun 12, 2009 at 09:12 AM.
Jun 12, 2009, 08:25 AM
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So when playing around in ECUFlash, one of the things that really sticks out at me is how "poorly" (in "" because it's my opinion, not necessarily a fact) the throttle pedal tables are used in the stock rom.
Look at all that white space on the right. Basically the throttle pedal is sensed to be 100% down when it's only 55-60% down (and all the way to the floor).
The pedal basically becomes an on-off switch and for people that aren't used to doing anything more than gas-mash with a throttle cable car, they have a hard time adjusting to this rev happy gas pedal and thus they smoke their clutch by inadvertently engaging it with too much gas (in addition to how stupid high the clutch engages).
When I first met Richard with EvolutionDyanmics, he told me the *first* thing he did was to remap his throttle pedal tables because he felt like he wasn't in control of the car. Last night we applied these tables to my map.
Notice how it's much more linear and it uses more of the map?
Of course, after driving the car the way it is stock for a year, I had a lot of relearning to do, mostly because what used to be a lot of throttle, no longer is. upshifts are a little weird (like someone learning to drive stick, not enough gas for the 6 puck clutch), but stops from starts, hills (yes, we have little hills here in Dallas), slow driving (ie. parking lots), etc. do seem to be a LOT easier. I thought that heel toe shifting would be affected as well, but I didn't have any problems heel toeing last night or this morning.
The nice thing is, around town, maintaining speed seems to be easier, since subtle adjustments to the throttle don't result in big increases in speed any more (although with the new tune, there is more power). We'll see this weekend if the remapped throttle position allows me better control over the car at the autocross (which can have a nice mix of partial throttle feathering as well as full throttle blasts).
Look at all that white space on the right. Basically the throttle pedal is sensed to be 100% down when it's only 55-60% down (and all the way to the floor).
The pedal basically becomes an on-off switch and for people that aren't used to doing anything more than gas-mash with a throttle cable car, they have a hard time adjusting to this rev happy gas pedal and thus they smoke their clutch by inadvertently engaging it with too much gas (in addition to how stupid high the clutch engages).
When I first met Richard with EvolutionDyanmics, he told me the *first* thing he did was to remap his throttle pedal tables because he felt like he wasn't in control of the car. Last night we applied these tables to my map.
Notice how it's much more linear and it uses more of the map?
Of course, after driving the car the way it is stock for a year, I had a lot of relearning to do, mostly because what used to be a lot of throttle, no longer is. upshifts are a little weird (like someone learning to drive stick, not enough gas for the 6 puck clutch), but stops from starts, hills (yes, we have little hills here in Dallas
), slow driving (ie. parking lots), etc. do seem to be a LOT easier. I thought that heel toe shifting would be affected as well, but I didn't have any problems heel toeing last night or this morning.The nice thing is, around town, maintaining speed seems to be easier, since subtle adjustments to the throttle don't result in big increases in speed any more (although with the new tune, there is more power
). We'll see this weekend if the remapped throttle position allows me better control over the car at the autocross (which can have a nice mix of partial throttle feathering as well as full throttle blasts).I've been looking at those tables for a while now wanting to do something very similar to what you did... It's easy to see how with the stock table and lowish load you could transition from 100% throttle to 50% throttle without ever making a change to pedal position if you are accelerating slowly from low rpm.
Did you happen to try the cruise control yet to see if there are any adverse affects?
I've noticed the JDM throttle maps are a little different than the us maps as well but not nearly as dramtic a change as what you posted.
I might give this a try over the weekend and see how it goes.
Jun 12, 2009, 08:28 AM
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glad your liking the new throttle tables. i know the feeling of the out of control acceleration. our outlander has the same problem. i barely touch the throttle and the front wheels are chirping. laurens always like " slow down! were not racing!!", yet i'm at like 5% throttle... now only if i could remap the outlander throttle tables 
Jun 12, 2009, 08:31 AM
#4
Nice,
I've been looking at those tables for a while now wanting to do something very similar to what you did... It's easy to see how with the stock table and lowish load you could transition from 100% throttle to 50% throttle without ever making a change to pedal position if you are accelerating slowly from low rpm.
Did you happen to try the cruise control yet to see if there are any adverse affects?
I've noticed the JDM throttle maps are a little different than the us maps as well but not nearly as dramtic a change as what you posted.
I might give this a try over the weekend and see how it goes.
I've been looking at those tables for a while now wanting to do something very similar to what you did... It's easy to see how with the stock table and lowish load you could transition from 100% throttle to 50% throttle without ever making a change to pedal position if you are accelerating slowly from low rpm.
Did you happen to try the cruise control yet to see if there are any adverse affects?
I've noticed the JDM throttle maps are a little different than the us maps as well but not nearly as dramtic a change as what you posted.
I might give this a try over the weekend and see how it goes.
) and I didn't sense any adverse effects. It just maintained 70mph.The big thing for me was that with the act 6 puck, I was stalling the car a lot (in traffic, getting up my driveway, etc. and I knew it wasn't me. So far so good
after swapping these tables.
Jun 12, 2009, 08:37 AM
#5
This looks good, I am just not sure I want to re-learn how to drive the car after 16 months For what's it's worth, I never feltthe car was difficult to drive at all.
Maybe Mitsu mapped it like this to assist in getting the addition 300lb car moving a little faster
For what's it's worth, I never feltthe car was difficult to drive at all.Maybe Mitsu mapped it like this to assist in getting the addition 300lb car moving a little faster
Jun 12, 2009, 11:34 AM
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Most people don't "floor it" when driving which is what you kinda need to do to get the power of the turbo going for decent acceleration.
I guess they do that to make the car feel faster overall even at moderate throttle. So now some people think - wow, feel how fast it accelerates and the pedal is only half way down.
I dunno.. just a theory.
I would personally like the full range of throttle control for a more conventional linear feel particular since it would lend to better throttle modulation.
I guess they do that to make the car feel faster overall even at moderate throttle. So now some people think - wow, feel how fast it accelerates and the pedal is only half way down.
I dunno.. just a theory.
I would personally like the full range of throttle control for a more conventional linear feel particular since it would lend to better throttle modulation.
Last edited by Evo_Someday; Jun 12, 2009 at 11:48 AM.
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Jun 12, 2009, 03:22 PM
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lol i noticed this when i first got the car. it hauls *** at half throttle and doesn't feel much faster at all when you go full throttle. Me and my friend have wondered why this is multiple times, i guess we now have our answer. If only half throttle's acceleration really was only half its power, imagine how fun a car that would be.
Jun 12, 2009, 03:51 PM
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lol i noticed this when i first got the car. it hauls *** at half throttle and doesn't feel much faster at all when you go full throttle. Me and my friend have wondered why this is multiple times, i guess we now have our answer. If only half throttle's acceleration really was only half its power, imagine how fun a car that would be.
goofygrin do you think you can upload an .xls or something of this so i don't have to hurt my eyes looking at the picture?
Jun 13, 2009, 06:32 PM
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How sure are you guys about the function of these tables? That is to say what are you guys assuming the X axis units are? Has anyone traced the functions that do lookups from this table?
Reason I ask is I just looked at them in EcuTek and the x axis is in load units rather than unknown units, which makes the function of these tables a bit questionable.
Reason I ask is I just looked at them in EcuTek and the x axis is in load units rather than unknown units, which makes the function of these tables a bit questionable.
Jun 13, 2009, 09:00 PM
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How sure are you guys about the function of these tables? That is to say what are you guys assuming the X axis units are? Has anyone traced the functions that do lookups from this table?
Reason I ask is I just looked at them in EcuTek and the x axis is in load units rather than unknown units, which makes the function of these tables a bit questionable.
Reason I ask is I just looked at them in EcuTek and the x axis is in load units rather than unknown units, which makes the function of these tables a bit questionable.
http://forums.cobbtuning.com/forums/...ad.php?t=55498
Basically; increasing the throttle rates, increases duty cycle for the drive-by wire system. Nevertheless, I had a play with the tables; seems responsive. In monitoring, part throttle driving, etc. the throttle position does not report ~86% (WOT) at partial throttle.
X axis should be RPM
Last edited by dcpatters; Jun 13, 2009 at 09:05 PM.