SST Fears
Oct 23, 2007, 08:24 AM
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SST Fears
I posted this on www.evoxforums.com to see people's thoughts, so I figured I'd do the same and post it here...
Ok, so if you're like me, you want an MR, but are hesitant to get it due to the fact that it has the SST rather than the 5MT.
I figured we could start a thread and list our worries about the SST transmission, and if any of us heard anything that should put a given fear to rest, we could quote the person and post the reply.
Now, as I understand it, there is a normal mode, sport mode, and supersport mode. Fee free to correct me if I'm wrong here.
The normal mode is sufficient for putting around town, and it automatically shifts for you.
The sport mode is more aggressive, shifts faster, and at a higher RPM. I think in this mode will allow you to do the shifting, unless you hit redline or so, in which case it will shift for you.
The supersport mode is like sport mode, except it won't ever shift for you, with the exception of the case where you go WOT at a low RPM, it will auto downshift for you.
So without further ado, my fears, worries, and questions:
-I'd honestly like the car to start off in sport mode by default. It will just help me feed connected to the car. If I wanted it to shift for me, I'd like to specify that, not have it be that way by default. Can I change this?
-In supersport mode, I think it's cute how it will auto downshift for you, but really, I'm fine. I'd rather not have that happen. After all, for tuning purposes and dyno pulls alone, I wouldn't be able to do what needs to be done if it was constantly downshifting for me. I'd want to change this. Would I need a TCU hack? some kind of piggyback? Would it be possible at all?
-I know how to fix a 5MT. I do it more often than I'd care to. I know jack**** about how the SST works internally. Will they be harder to work on than a traditional 5MT?
-The trans weighs ~50lbs more than the manual. Sure, we can't fix that, but I'd just like to complain about that.
-Will the TCU (transmission Control Unit) be a thorn in my side? Will it be another obstacle while modifying the car?
-How robust is the transmission itself? Will it be a limiting factor in terms of power? How about the clutches? Ultimately will this transmission be more limited in terms of power than a manual?
-Upgrades - will this transmission be more or less upgradeable than the 5MT?
-If it gets totally destroyed, will I have trouble finding one used? Will it cost me an arm and a leg?
-This is a first gen trans for mitsubishi, vs the 5MT that's a more robust version of its predecessor. Since it's first gen, will it have glitches and issues? If so, will the 2nd gen bolt up to the engine and work as a drop-in replacement?
That should be a good start. Post any that I may have missed, and feel free to answer any if you have good info.
Ok, so if you're like me, you want an MR, but are hesitant to get it due to the fact that it has the SST rather than the 5MT.
I figured we could start a thread and list our worries about the SST transmission, and if any of us heard anything that should put a given fear to rest, we could quote the person and post the reply.
Now, as I understand it, there is a normal mode, sport mode, and supersport mode. Fee free to correct me if I'm wrong here.
The normal mode is sufficient for putting around town, and it automatically shifts for you.
The sport mode is more aggressive, shifts faster, and at a higher RPM. I think in this mode will allow you to do the shifting, unless you hit redline or so, in which case it will shift for you.
The supersport mode is like sport mode, except it won't ever shift for you, with the exception of the case where you go WOT at a low RPM, it will auto downshift for you.
So without further ado, my fears, worries, and questions:
-I'd honestly like the car to start off in sport mode by default. It will just help me feed connected to the car. If I wanted it to shift for me, I'd like to specify that, not have it be that way by default. Can I change this?
-In supersport mode, I think it's cute how it will auto downshift for you, but really, I'm fine. I'd rather not have that happen. After all, for tuning purposes and dyno pulls alone, I wouldn't be able to do what needs to be done if it was constantly downshifting for me. I'd want to change this. Would I need a TCU hack? some kind of piggyback? Would it be possible at all?
-I know how to fix a 5MT. I do it more often than I'd care to. I know jack**** about how the SST works internally. Will they be harder to work on than a traditional 5MT?
-The trans weighs ~50lbs more than the manual. Sure, we can't fix that, but I'd just like to complain about that.
-Will the TCU (transmission Control Unit) be a thorn in my side? Will it be another obstacle while modifying the car?
-How robust is the transmission itself? Will it be a limiting factor in terms of power? How about the clutches? Ultimately will this transmission be more limited in terms of power than a manual?
-Upgrades - will this transmission be more or less upgradeable than the 5MT?
-If it gets totally destroyed, will I have trouble finding one used? Will it cost me an arm and a leg?
-This is a first gen trans for mitsubishi, vs the 5MT that's a more robust version of its predecessor. Since it's first gen, will it have glitches and issues? If so, will the 2nd gen bolt up to the engine and work as a drop-in replacement?
That should be a good start. Post any that I may have missed, and feel free to answer any if you have good info.
Oct 23, 2007, 10:01 AM
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First of all I think you already have a few misconceptions. Which mode the tranny is in (Normal, Sport, Supersport) is mutally exclusive from full auto mode or manual shifting mode. Let's say you leave it in full auto where you have no control. Normal mode will shift at a slower speed to keep things comfortable like a regular slushbox. It will not be as agressive, will shift earlier than redline, and will not downshift as early. Sport mode brings it up a notch and will have faster shifts, will shift at redline, and will downshift earlier when it senses you need the power. Now super-sport mode has been described to be very aggressive with almost viloent fast shifting like the exotics. One reporter said that the auto shifting/super-sport combo was so good and smart that it was upshifting and downshifting almost exactly how he would have on the track. In manual shifting mode you have full control of the upshift and downshifts. The only thing normal, sport, and super-sport does is control how fast the shifts occur. Everythign else is up to you. That's how I understand it from what I've read so somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Thing is the SST isn't 100% finalized yet so who knows what we are going to get in the end.
Oct 23, 2007, 10:09 AM
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you do NOT have full control over up-shifts and down-shifts in any mode-even supersport....Road and Track reports this in the Nov. issue:
"The TC-SST has three different "full automatic" settings for various driving conditions: Normal, Sport and S-Sport. Normal is ideal for cruising, while Sport is meant for spirited driving on a twisty road...S-Sport is intended for an all-out attack on a track and is much more aggressive than the sportiest DSG mode. At this setting the gearbox won't upshift unless the tach needle is pegged at redline, and it downshifts as soon as you slow for a corner."
granted you don't use the rev limiter for a shift point, you'll be shifting before the car, but it still will downshift for you from what i understand.
"The TC-SST has three different "full automatic" settings for various driving conditions: Normal, Sport and S-Sport. Normal is ideal for cruising, while Sport is meant for spirited driving on a twisty road...S-Sport is intended for an all-out attack on a track and is much more aggressive than the sportiest DSG mode. At this setting the gearbox won't upshift unless the tach needle is pegged at redline, and it downshifts as soon as you slow for a corner."
granted you don't use the rev limiter for a shift point, you'll be shifting before the car, but it still will downshift for you from what i understand.
Oct 23, 2007, 12:09 PM
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you do NOT have full control over up-shifts and down-shifts in any mode-even supersport....Road and Track reports this in the Nov. issue:
"The TC-SST has three different "full automatic" settings for various driving conditions: Normal, Sport and S-Sport. Normal is ideal for cruising, while Sport is meant for spirited driving on a twisty road...S-Sport is intended for an all-out attack on a track and is much more aggressive than the sportiest DSG mode. At this setting the gearbox won't upshift unless the tach needle is pegged at redline, and it downshifts as soon as you slow for a corner."
granted you don't use the rev limiter for a shift point, you'll be shifting before the car, but it still will downshift for you from what i understand.
"The TC-SST has three different "full automatic" settings for various driving conditions: Normal, Sport and S-Sport. Normal is ideal for cruising, while Sport is meant for spirited driving on a twisty road...S-Sport is intended for an all-out attack on a track and is much more aggressive than the sportiest DSG mode. At this setting the gearbox won't upshift unless the tach needle is pegged at redline, and it downshifts as soon as you slow for a corner."
granted you don't use the rev limiter for a shift point, you'll be shifting before the car, but it still will downshift for you from what i understand.
I just think that in supersport mode, it shouldn't autoshift ever.
Maybe they'll make a superdupersport mode. :-/
Oct 23, 2007, 01:08 PM
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Uhhh.... are you guys not understanding? In "full automatic" mode you are not doing the shifting period. The computer does it for you. In "full manual" mode, you control the shifting. If you do not want the super-sport mode to shift for you then put the car into "full manual" mode with the super-sport setting.
Oct 23, 2007, 01:22 PM
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Uhhh.... are you guys not understanding? In "full automatic" mode you are not doing the shifting period. The computer does it for you. In "full manual" mode, you control the shifting. If you do not want the super-sport mode to shift for you then put the car into "full manual" mode with the super-sport setting.
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Oct 23, 2007, 02:07 PM
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just leave the shifter in "D" for the full auto mode then pick either of normal, sport, super sport. move the shifter towards you to access the "manual" mode where you control up and down shifts (+/-) Can be done on the shift lever or the shift paddles.
What i'm not sure though is, in manual mode, will it automatically down shift for you when you slow down or come to stop. I know downshifting is necessary especially when managing turns but let say you are coming in from 4th/5th gear and have to hit the brakes to slow down or stop will it be on the right gear depending on your speed to accelerate again?
What i'm not sure though is, in manual mode, will it automatically down shift for you when you slow down or come to stop. I know downshifting is necessary especially when managing turns but let say you are coming in from 4th/5th gear and have to hit the brakes to slow down or stop will it be on the right gear depending on your speed to accelerate again?
Oct 23, 2007, 02:13 PM
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Uhhh.... are you guys not understanding? In "full automatic" mode you are not doing the shifting period. The computer does it for you. In "full manual" mode, you control the shifting. If you do not want the super-sport mode to shift for you then put the car into "full manual" mode with the super-sport setting.
Oct 23, 2007, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Motortrend
TC-SST is a true manual, with gear changes possible via the console-mounted shifter, or magnesium paddle shifters. Normal and Sport modes are available as well: Normal does a spot-on impression of a gas-sipping auto while Sport is suitable for situations when higher shift points, quick gear changes, and engine braking are desired. Manual and automatic shifts in Normal and Sport mode are exactly as you'd expect: comfortably slow in the former, suitably brisk in the latter-though perhaps a hair slower than the S-mode of VW/Audi's dual clutch system. Toggling between the two modes is easily achieved by a switch on the console and can be done at any time.
But there's a third mode called Super-Sport, and it requires stopping and holding the drive mode switch back for three seconds-just enough time for thoughtful introspection and a short prayer that Mitsubishi leave it alone (the TC-SST-equipped Evo MR I drove was a 95-percent-complete prototype). Why? Because this mode is so nasty good it's the one you'll want for track days or simply scaring the bejesus out of the in-laws. Whether manual tabbed or left in auto, S-sport gear changes are brutally quick with the kind of shift violence seen only in Italian exotics. Revs can be held deep in every gear and if you back off before the upshift, you're rewarded with a kick in the rear and a sonorous transmission whine. For those who've never caned a high-performance manual, S-Sport will be a neck-snapping, eye-opening experience.
But there's a third mode called Super-Sport, and it requires stopping and holding the drive mode switch back for three seconds-just enough time for thoughtful introspection and a short prayer that Mitsubishi leave it alone (the TC-SST-equipped Evo MR I drove was a 95-percent-complete prototype). Why? Because this mode is so nasty good it's the one you'll want for track days or simply scaring the bejesus out of the in-laws. Whether manual tabbed or left in auto, S-sport gear changes are brutally quick with the kind of shift violence seen only in Italian exotics. Revs can be held deep in every gear and if you back off before the upshift, you're rewarded with a kick in the rear and a sonorous transmission whine. For those who've never caned a high-performance manual, S-Sport will be a neck-snapping, eye-opening experience.
Originally Posted by Road & Track
As impressive as the S-AWC is, perhaps the most noteworthy item on the new Evo is the TC-SST (Twin Clutch-Sportronic Shift Transmission). Like the DSG gearbox found in Audi/Volkswagen cars, the TC-SST is a manual-based transmission that provides a fully automatic mode and super-fast manual shifting via paddles behind the steering wheel.
The TC-SST has three different "full automatic" settings for various driving conditions: Normal, Sport and S-Sport. Normal is ideal for cruising, while Sport is meant for spirited driving on a twisty road...S-Sport is intended for an all-out attack on a track and is much more aggressive than the sportiest DSG mode. At this setting the gearbox won't upshift unless the tach needle is pegged at redline, and it downshifts as soon as you slow for a corner.
Around the 2.0-mile road circuit, the TC-SST worked flawlessly in both manual and full automatic modes.
The TC-SST has three different "full automatic" settings for various driving conditions: Normal, Sport and S-Sport. Normal is ideal for cruising, while Sport is meant for spirited driving on a twisty road...S-Sport is intended for an all-out attack on a track and is much more aggressive than the sportiest DSG mode. At this setting the gearbox won't upshift unless the tach needle is pegged at redline, and it downshifts as soon as you slow for a corner.
Around the 2.0-mile road circuit, the TC-SST worked flawlessly in both manual and full automatic modes.
What I take away from reading this is that there are two methods for shifting. There is "full automatic" where the computer auto shifts for you. And then there is "full manual" via the paddle shifters or the gear shift positioned in the +/- slot. No matter what shifting method you use there is also a second related shifting mode with 3 settings of Normal/Sport/Super-Sport that can be used with "full auto" or with "full manual". It's stated explicitly that the Normal/Sport/Super-Sport mode effects shifting speed in both "full auto" and "full manual". I'm sure no one will aruge that. It's also stated explicitly and very obvious that the Normal/Sport/Super-Sport mode effects shifting points in "full auto". What it doesn't state explicitly is if the computer automatically upshifts for you when in "full manual" mode or not. If it does it probably would only do it at redline or deep into the redline zone or if you keep on redlining it for a certain period of time. What it also doesn't state is if the computer will auto downshift for you when in "full manual". Like let's say you're rolling in 5th at 50 and you're slowing for a stoplight. Will it automatically put it back into 1st for you when you come to a stop or will it leave it in 5th since you never commanded any downshifts? So I guess that back ups some of what I stated but also leaves some room for error on my previous statement. Regardless if I'm wrong or right I really hope for the sake of enthusiasts that the "full manual" mode truly is completely manual and relies on the driver to do ALL shifting period.
Oct 23, 2007, 07:51 PM
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dklau33 is spot on. There are 3 automatic modes AND manual shifting. It will never shift for you in the manual mode, even if you hit redline, it will just bounce off the revlimiter like a manual car. Manual mode is full manual. In the 3 auto modes you do none of the shifting, the car does it all by itself.
Oct 23, 2007, 11:36 PM
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it sounds as if y'all never saw the "BM video review" before it was taken down. in it, it CLEARLY shows how you have full manual control in "manual" mode. NO automatic upshifts. what is unclear is if it will automatically take you to 1st gear if you come to a dead stop. maybe it will in normal and sport but not s-sport? who knows. we'll have to wait and see.
what IS clear is that it is a proper sports tranny in manual mode. QUICK shifts, FULL manual control. this ain't the crappy VW DSG that auto upshifts for you. nope, mitsu was very clear that it'd be better, and it is (from viewing the video).
what IS clear is that it is a proper sports tranny in manual mode. QUICK shifts, FULL manual control. this ain't the crappy VW DSG that auto upshifts for you. nope, mitsu was very clear that it'd be better, and it is (from viewing the video).
Oct 23, 2007, 11:37 PM
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