Utec Installed - Boost Issues - Help
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From: Recaro Driver's Seat
Utec Installed - Boost Issues - Help
got it in and i really like the interface and how well it works with data log lab.
however - a couple of issues. these issues happen with several maps - stock, xs stage 1, xs stage 1 with ecu timing, MJ's buschur stage 1 map.
first - on my power graphs my torque and hp curves are very close to each other and the numbers for each are almost always identical (290 hp 291 torque - 257hp 264 tq etc...). very weird. not at all like the graphs i normally see here.
second and most important is the boost issue - car ramps up to 21 and holds solid until the car reaches 5500-6300 rpms, at which point the blow off valve (i think) bleeds boost off down to 10. at this point the car basically quits pulling. if i keep the foot planted at WOT it will build back up to around 16 and then revent. what is up???it doesnt seem to me like it would be the utec, because it is even doing it on the stock map as well.
marc
ps - how are you guys posting your logs? when i do it it just pushes them together.
however - a couple of issues. these issues happen with several maps - stock, xs stage 1, xs stage 1 with ecu timing, MJ's buschur stage 1 map.
first - on my power graphs my torque and hp curves are very close to each other and the numbers for each are almost always identical (290 hp 291 torque - 257hp 264 tq etc...). very weird. not at all like the graphs i normally see here.
second and most important is the boost issue - car ramps up to 21 and holds solid until the car reaches 5500-6300 rpms, at which point the blow off valve (i think) bleeds boost off down to 10. at this point the car basically quits pulling. if i keep the foot planted at WOT it will build back up to around 16 and then revent. what is up???it doesnt seem to me like it would be the utec, because it is even doing it on the stock map as well.
marc
ps - how are you guys posting your logs? when i do it it just pushes them together.
I had the same problem, you can cut your boost down to 19psi across the board by removing 10-12% duty cycle across the board.. (90% or so on the table)
My map is tuned to run fairly rich in the midrange, if you don't have an aftermarket maf pipe and filter, you can remove a bit of fuel and gain a little power..
you'd be surprised, in real world pulls, your torque and hp numbers would be fairly close.. its really at the high RPM where you would see HP climb significantly anyway.. Torque is what you want for street driving, tune for that and you'll be alot happier..
Now, your problem with the boost.. Lemme guess, you still have the stock DV? It blows open at about 21psi when its fairly new.. at least yours holds for awhile then releases, in my case it would spike to 22psi and drop to 17 as it vents, this is bad.. you need to drop your boost a little and upgrade your DV (BOV) you'll just end up tuning for what essentially equates to a boost leak, which means you'd get very unpredictable results and AFR's
Use the CODE tag (shown in the advanced editor) to post the logs.. it keeps them preformatted the way the file should look..
My map is tuned to run fairly rich in the midrange, if you don't have an aftermarket maf pipe and filter, you can remove a bit of fuel and gain a little power..
you'd be surprised, in real world pulls, your torque and hp numbers would be fairly close.. its really at the high RPM where you would see HP climb significantly anyway.. Torque is what you want for street driving, tune for that and you'll be alot happier..
Now, your problem with the boost.. Lemme guess, you still have the stock DV? It blows open at about 21psi when its fairly new.. at least yours holds for awhile then releases, in my case it would spike to 22psi and drop to 17 as it vents, this is bad.. you need to drop your boost a little and upgrade your DV (BOV) you'll just end up tuning for what essentially equates to a boost leak, which means you'd get very unpredictable results and AFR's
Use the CODE tag (shown in the advanced editor) to post the logs.. it keeps them preformatted the way the file should look..
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From: Recaro Driver's Seat
still have the stock dv.
my problem is my boost releases at 5500-6000 and drops down below 10lbs or less.
i pulled the utec off and went back to stock ecu. same result. never happened before yesterday.
reinstalled utec.
i pulled the boost duty cycle on the xs stage 1 map all the way back to 80%. the boost is lower, and holds up to 6600, but then it is still dropping off below 10lbs. ??
thanks for all the help MJ. i appreciate it very much. this is very frustrating as i have a track event starting tonight and running all weekend. tuff to dial in times when you dont know when your boost is gonna take a dump!
my problem is my boost releases at 5500-6000 and drops down below 10lbs or less.
i pulled the utec off and went back to stock ecu. same result. never happened before yesterday.
reinstalled utec.
i pulled the boost duty cycle on the xs stage 1 map all the way back to 80%. the boost is lower, and holds up to 6600, but then it is still dropping off below 10lbs. ??
thanks for all the help MJ. i appreciate it very much. this is very frustrating as i have a track event starting tonight and running all weekend. tuff to dial in times when you dont know when your boost is gonna take a dump!
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From: Recaro Driver's Seat
here are some maps
ok - been turning some wrenches. i have r&r everything related to the turbo i can think of to make sure nothing was loose. i have bypassed the dv, installed a mbc to bypass the factory control, changed maps etc....,
r&r the DP - i did not originally install this. when i looked at the spring bolts i noticed that one was much more conpressed than the other. not good. pulled it off and noticed no donut gasket. does anyone know if the helix DP needs a gasket on the turbo side?? i know the buschur does not, but want to make sure about the helix.
anyway - anybody have any input??
part 2
well - i just got the car down off the rack after breaking for some pizza. took the car out for a couple of pulls. craziness. first two pulls no problems! boost was great thru all 4 gears. then the bottom fell out again. for the rest of the night, right back to the same issue.
only difference i can figure is the car was cool for the first 2 pulls and then heated up.
this sucks. any ideas? here are a couple of data logs. the maf jumps around like crazy.
r&r the DP - i did not originally install this. when i looked at the spring bolts i noticed that one was much more conpressed than the other. not good. pulled it off and noticed no donut gasket. does anyone know if the helix DP needs a gasket on the turbo side?? i know the buschur does not, but want to make sure about the helix.
anyway - anybody have any input??
part 2
well - i just got the car down off the rack after breaking for some pizza. took the car out for a couple of pulls. craziness. first two pulls no problems! boost was great thru all 4 gears. then the bottom fell out again. for the rest of the night, right back to the same issue.
only difference i can figure is the car was cool for the first 2 pulls and then heated up.
this sucks. any ideas? here are a couple of data logs. the maf jumps around like crazy.
Code:
DATA1 , , , ,Load,Knock, , , Mod, Mod, , Mod RPM, MAP, MAF,TPS,Site,Count, Ign#1, Inj#1, Ign, Fuel,Boost, MAF , psia, Hz, % , , , deg , duty , deg, % ,(OL) , Hz 2664,+22.7, 397,100, 10, 00, +17.4, 14.0,ECU. , +0.0, 80.00, 350 2686,+22.5, 328,100, 10, 00, +16.3, 14.0,ECU. , +0.0, 80.00, 426 2757,+22.5, 384,100, 10, 00, +16.4, 14.0,ECU. , +0.0, 80.00, 469 2770,+22.5, 476,100, 10, 00, +15.3, 17.0,ECU. , +0.0, 80.00, 381 2841,+22.5, 419,100, 10, 00, +14.6, 17.0,ECU. , +0.0, 80.00, 434 2908,+22.5, 592,100, 10, 00, +12.5, 19.0,ECU. , +0.0, 80.00, 596 3005,+22.3, 631,100, 10, 00, +10.4, 21.0,ECU. , +0.0, 80.00, 510 3135,+22.3, 569,100, 10, 00, +7.5, 24.0,ECU. , +0.0, 80.00, 598 3220,+22.3, 591,100, 10, 00, +6.5, 29.0,ECU. , +0.0, 80.00, 452 3353,+22.3, 747,100, 10, 00, +6.6, 31.0,ECU. , +0.0, 80.00, 581 3429,+22.5, 881,100, 20, 00, +7.7, 34.0,ECU. , +0.5, 80.00, 922 3576,+22.5, 892,100, 20, 00, +7.7, 35.0,ECU. , +0.5, 80.00, 739 3699,+22.7, 936,100, 20, 00, +8.0, 35.0,ECU. , +0.5, 80.00, 642 3813,+22.5, 954,100, 20, 00, +8.1, 38.0,ECU. , +0.5, 80.00, 816 3889,+22.5, 734,100, 10, 00, +8.0, 40.0,ECU. , +0.0, 80.00,1054 4040,+22.5, 679,100, 10, 00, +8.5, 41.0,ECU. , +0.0, 80.00, 833 4156,+22.3,1126,100, 20, 00, +8.4, 43.0,ECU. , +0.5, 80.00, 769 4273,+22.5, 720,100, 20, 00, +9.6, 44.0,ECU. , +0.5, 80.00, 773 4334,+22.5, 992,100, 30, 00, +10.7, 43.0,ECU. , +3.0, 80.00,1054 4492,+22.7, 927,100, 40, 00, +9.6, 45.0,ECU. , +4.0, 80.00, 841 4553,+22.7,1213,100, 40, 00, +9.7, 48.0,ECU. , +4.0, 80.00,1623 4708,+22.7,1041,100, 40, 00, +9.9, 50.0,ECU. , +4.0, 80.00,1046 4830,+22.7, 988,100, 40, 00, +9.8, 51.0,ECU. , +3.8, 80.00,1131 4894,+22.5,1173,100, 40, 00, +9.7, 52.0,ECU. , +3.5, 80.00,1008 4982,+22.5,1362,100, 40, 00, +10.0, 53.0,ECU. , +2.1, 80.00,1028 5104,+22.5,1228,100, 40, 00, +9.8, 55.0,ECU. , +2.6, 80.00, 980 5249,+22.5,1216,100, 50, 00, +9.8, 56.0,ECU. , +2.0, 80.00,1381 5376,+22.5,1059,100, 50, 00, +11.0, 58.0,ECU. , +1.6, 80.00,1157 5482,+22.5,1179,100, 50, 00, +11.1, 59.0,ECU. , +1.0, 80.00,1213 5592,+22.5,1312,100, 50, 00, +11.0, 61.0,ECU. , +1.0, 80.00,1358 5659,+22.5,1285,100, 40, 00, +12.3, 62.0,ECU. , +1.0, 80.00,1308 5737,+22.7,1162,100, 50, 00, +13.2, 62.0,ECU. , +1.0, 80.00,1470 5847,+22.5,1179,100, 50, 00, +14.3, 62.0,ECU. , +0.6, 80.00,1269 5941,+22.5,1400,100, 50, 00, +20.4, 52.0,ECU. , +0.2, 80.00,1533 6027,+22.5,1408,100, 60, 00, +17.4, 58.0,ECU. , -0.2, 80.00,1445 6105,+22.5, 931,100, 60, 00, +25.3, 39.0,ECU. , -0.3, 80.00, 850 6195,+22.5, 628, 60, 50, 00, +32.3, 14.0,ECU. , -0.6, 80.00, 486 5868,+22.7, 166, 1, 00, 00, +38.3, 6.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 118 5420,+22.7, 76, 1, 00, 00, +38.2, 5.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 74
Code:
DATA1 , , , ,Load,Knock, , , Mod, Mod, , Mod RPM, MAP, MAF,TPS,Site,Count, Ign#1, Inj#1, Ign, Fuel,Boost, MAF , psia, Hz, % , , , deg , duty , deg, % ,(OL) , Hz 2839,+22.5, 491,100, 10, 00, +15.2, 16.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 442 2906,+22.5, 414,100, 10, 00, +15.2, 17.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 572 2913,+22.5, 618,100, 10, 00, +12.4, 19.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 534 3013,+22.5, 600,100, 10, 00, +11.4, 20.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 605 3129,+22.3, 591,100, 10, 00, +9.3, 23.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 598 3192,+22.3, 562,100, 10, 00, +6.6, 29.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 553 3333,+22.1, 806,100, 10, 00, +5.4, 33.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 809 3415,+22.3, 974,100, 20, 00, +5.5, 37.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 948 3599,+22.3, 909,100, 20, 00, +6.6, 36.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 700 3695,+22.3, 660,100, 20, 00, +6.6, 38.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 998 3809,+22.5, 536,100, 20, 00, +7.7, 41.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. ,1170 3916,+22.5, 994,100, 30, 00, +7.7, 43.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. ,1302 4060,+22.3,1187,100, 30, 00, +7.7, 45.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 939 4224,+22.3,1050,100, 30, 00, +7.8, 45.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 802 4323,+22.3,1162,100, 30, 00, +8.5, 45.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. ,1089 4444,+22.3, 970,100, 40, 00, +9.6, 45.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 878 4623,+22.3, 952,100, 40, 00, +9.7, 48.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. ,1149 4755,+22.9,1111,100, 40, 00, +8.6, 50.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. ,1050 4796,+22.9,1173,100, 40, 00, +8.7, 51.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. ,1072 4945,+22.9,1305,100, 40, 00, +8.7, 53.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 954 5042,+22.9,1131,100, 50, 00, +9.9, 54.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. ,1222 5200,+22.3,1054,100, 50, 00, +15.9, 44.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. ,1308 5324,+22.3,1315,100, 60, 00, +13.0, 51.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. ,1388 5324,+22.5, 712,100, 50, 00, +25.8, 27.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 629 5402,+23.1, 709,100, 40, 00, +26.9, 27.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 791 5527,+23.1, 720,100, 30, 00, +27.2, 27.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 725 5509,+23.1, 706,100, 20, 00, +27.3, 27.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 668 5564,+22.9, 664,100, 10, 00, +27.2, 28.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 741 5649,+22.5, 522,100, 10, 00, +27.2, 28.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 728 5659,+22.3, 683,100, 10, 00, +28.3, 28.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 716 5688,+22.3, 683,100, 10, 00, +28.5, 28.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 740 5777,+22.1, 614,100, 10, 00, +28.3, 29.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 687 5777,+22.1, 688,100, 10, 00, +29.1, 28.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 688 5868,+22.3, 603, 98, 10, 00, +29.1, 28.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 628 5527,+22.3, 96, 1, 00, 00, +35.2, 5.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 91 5120,+22.5, 53, 0, 00, 00, +38.1, 5.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 111 4816,+22.7, 57, 0, 00, 00, +36.0, 5.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 69 4432,+22.5, 63, 0, 00, 00, +34.0, 4.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 57 4145,+22.5, 42, 0, 00, 00, +20.0, 4.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 43 3858,+22.5, 46, 0, 00, 00, +17.6, 4.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 47 3512,+22.3, 57, 0, 00, 00, +18.6, 4.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 63 3261,+22.5, 58, 0, 00, 00, +22.5, 4.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU. , 61
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From: Recaro Driver's Seat
a little explanation is in order on that 2nd run - at 5324rpm it looses boost and stalls. i keep it WOT and it takes another data point at 5324 where the maf drops almost in half???
i keep WOT for a while as you can see and the car never pulls past 5868rpm and then i let off.
i keep WOT for a while as you can see and the car never pulls past 5868rpm and then i let off.
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From: Recaro Driver's Seat
just found out something very interesting. the DP i had the exhuast place put on is supposed to use the stock donut gasket. they put it on without the gasket. according to the websites that sell this DP it is very important to have that.
anybody think this could cause the boost loss? it just seems wierd that the boost would hold strong up to 5500 and then fall of so quickly.
anybody think this could cause the boost loss? it just seems wierd that the boost would hold strong up to 5500 and then fall of so quickly.
It could, if its supposed to have it, put it in... But check your Mass air sensor, the BOV, the hoses to the intake and BOV and to the turbo, and the vacuum lines for the DV, Boost solenoid, and anything connected to that intake pipe...
Looking at your log, your load site never reaches over 50 or 60% and your MAF reading is unusually low.. when you describe your "issue" the MAF reading drops down significantly.. That can be one of two things.. a LARGE amount of air is getting into the engine without being metered, or your DV Is defective and blowing open.. Another possibility is there is some damage or defect in the MAF sensor.. Once you verify everything is ok, you might want to swap sensors to be certain its not defective.
If your car is venting or has a huge air leak (Intercooler pipes and discharge tube from the turbo to the intercooler) could also result in blowing off boost, possibly inconsistently..
Since you don' thave a MAP sensor installed, I cannot see exactly what boost the car is making when this happens, but here is what I do see..
1) Injector duty cycle is low, not unusually low, but low
2) the MAF reading is lower than I would expect to see
3) MAF FQ drops severely at 5324rpm while still at WOT
4) Ignition is fairly aggressive (due to being at a low load site)
All of this indicates a severe air leak... If you can't find anything wrong, replace the Diverter Valve (BOV) and have the MAF sensor checked..
Since I'm not sure what has been "touched" on the car, check to make sure the lines connected to the stock MAF pipe (if you have it) and make sure everything that isn't connected is capped..
Looking at your log, your load site never reaches over 50 or 60% and your MAF reading is unusually low.. when you describe your "issue" the MAF reading drops down significantly.. That can be one of two things.. a LARGE amount of air is getting into the engine without being metered, or your DV Is defective and blowing open.. Another possibility is there is some damage or defect in the MAF sensor.. Once you verify everything is ok, you might want to swap sensors to be certain its not defective.
If your car is venting or has a huge air leak (Intercooler pipes and discharge tube from the turbo to the intercooler) could also result in blowing off boost, possibly inconsistently..
Since you don' thave a MAP sensor installed, I cannot see exactly what boost the car is making when this happens, but here is what I do see..
1) Injector duty cycle is low, not unusually low, but low
2) the MAF reading is lower than I would expect to see
3) MAF FQ drops severely at 5324rpm while still at WOT
4) Ignition is fairly aggressive (due to being at a low load site)
All of this indicates a severe air leak... If you can't find anything wrong, replace the Diverter Valve (BOV) and have the MAF sensor checked..
Since I'm not sure what has been "touched" on the car, check to make sure the lines connected to the stock MAF pipe (if you have it) and make sure everything that isn't connected is capped..
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From: Recaro Driver's Seat
here is the history of the issue as far as additions
exhuast on wednesday afternoon - no pulls as i drove home
ss clutch line thursday afternoon - went to dinner
utec thursday night - started pulls at 9 pm - first pull ok, every pull after that boost bleed off
these are the only mods ever. car had 1008 miles when i started on wednesday. no problems.
i have triple checked EVERY hose, line etc.. on the car. they are all super tight.
replacing the exhaust gasket in about 30 minutes. if it doesnt help i will replace the maf sensor. i do not think it is the bov as i have bypassed that completely (i know, I know, but i had the boost dialed low and let the pressure bleed off by using throtttle control) and the issue still remains.
thanks again MJ for all the help. you dont know how great it is to have a little support.
marc
thanks again for all the help.
exhuast on wednesday afternoon - no pulls as i drove home
ss clutch line thursday afternoon - went to dinner
utec thursday night - started pulls at 9 pm - first pull ok, every pull after that boost bleed off
these are the only mods ever. car had 1008 miles when i started on wednesday. no problems.
i have triple checked EVERY hose, line etc.. on the car. they are all super tight.
replacing the exhaust gasket in about 30 minutes. if it doesnt help i will replace the maf sensor. i do not think it is the bov as i have bypassed that completely (i know, I know, but i had the boost dialed low and let the pressure bleed off by using throtttle control) and the issue still remains.
thanks again MJ for all the help. you dont know how great it is to have a little support.
marc
thanks again for all the help.
The other possibility you can look at is your wastegate opening, there could be something wrong with the actuator (or something leaking at it) since that can cause your boost to drop.. bypassing the BOV at the boost pressures on our car will damage something so put it back on if your certain its installed correctly and functioning. (the BOV could also have been installed backwards)
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From: Recaro Driver's Seat
put in the gasket. didnt solve the issue.
as far as how the boost is running prior to it bleeding off
stock map it runs up to 19 and then bleeds to 10 then hesitates and blows down again to around 5.
your buschur map - up to 21 then just like the stock map.
if i lower the duty cycle to where it only boosts to say 12, it doesnt do it. it only starts doing it when i increase boost to 15 or higher.
next two steps are new bov and then maf. you would think 1100 miles wouldnt be to many for the maf
marc
ps - i am going to put together a pressure tester to connect to the inlet pipe and pressurize the system up to 15lbs and listen for leaks. any pointers, or no-no's i should know about?
as far as how the boost is running prior to it bleeding off
stock map it runs up to 19 and then bleeds to 10 then hesitates and blows down again to around 5.
your buschur map - up to 21 then just like the stock map.
if i lower the duty cycle to where it only boosts to say 12, it doesnt do it. it only starts doing it when i increase boost to 15 or higher.
next two steps are new bov and then maf. you would think 1100 miles wouldnt be to many for the maf
marc
ps - i am going to put together a pressure tester to connect to the inlet pipe and pressurize the system up to 15lbs and listen for leaks. any pointers, or no-no's i should know about?
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From: Recaro Driver's Seat
i am going to replace the DV ASAP. Ordering it first thing monday. even if it is not that i still need to replace it.
mj - since you brought up the maf... how is the UR maf you have doing? since the maf is such a big restriction, i might as well ditch it in favor of the UR. if i use it as a pull through at first in place of the stock unit, how much tuning will it need. can i accomplish it with just the utec, or do i need to have a wideband tuner for this?
thanks again - marc
mj - since you brought up the maf... how is the UR maf you have doing? since the maf is such a big restriction, i might as well ditch it in favor of the UR. if i use it as a pull through at first in place of the stock unit, how much tuning will it need. can i accomplish it with just the utec, or do i need to have a wideband tuner for this?
thanks again - marc
You can tune with the UTEC, but you will need the wideband.. I currently have used the upgraded MAF as a DRAWTHROUGH setup, I am going to "Hopefully" modify my upper intercooler pipe this week after unsucessfully trying to get a new pipe made up with the section already removed.. Even with exact measurements, the shop I contacted doesn't seem to want to make up the pipe.. I do know it works really well, but it is calibrated for blow-through so it has some minor quirks with a drawthrough setup (Its calibrated for slightly higher airflow and air temps because its designed for blowthrough), So I removed it and put my MAF back on for the time being (also the air filter I was using was a little large and I had to take out the intercooler spray bottle for it to fit.. which I didn't want to do)
Last edited by MalibuJack; Jul 4, 2004 at 10:16 AM.
Oh, and my original point, when I looked at my DV after I took it out of my car, after spiking 22psi of boost dropping severely (17psi) I discovered the spring seemed to be fatigued and there appears to be a small stress fracture in the housing which could have been leaking on me. I don't know that a bad MAF sensor is your issue.. but with 1100 miles on the car, if it is the sensor, have it replaced under warranty..
Also if you have access to a smoke machine. You can check for any leaks in the system. This is the best way to check for leaks because you can actually see them. But this does sound like a DV problem to me like MJ was saying.
Ben
Ben
Last edited by bbbwrx; Jul 4, 2004 at 03:39 PM. Reason: to change some machine to smoke machine