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Okay. I realize that I have been a real eccentric person on the forums for bad ideas and weird swaps. Sue me. This time I'm serious.
The other day, my brother asked me if I could put some more pep to his car, an ecotec Cavalier. No big deal, an Eaton M45 or M62 Supercharger will get it to 250 on stock, and there's a whole slew of aftermarket support for it.
Yesterday, I wasted some riced Honda hatchback in town and it felt amazing. It really has my mind racing, and I'm dead set on building an outrageous sleeper out of this 2005. I don't need 300AWHP. Planning on passing this to my girlfriend at some point, and she's not power hungry...yet. (Wasting that Civic really got her motor running haha) I am going for SBD. >:}
That all got me to thinking, though. I have been wanting to mod the ***** off of my 2002 OZ ever since I picked it up. Now, in her stead, for reason of transmission shifting issues, I have a 2005 ES that's probably going to need a motor or transmission within 50k. I have a complete spare 4g94 after a quick tax-time swap to get back on the road. (Hence the 2005.) By the way, Calico, my 2005 Lancer with mis-match headlights, is an ES with a busted cat manifold (trash) and 5-speed transmission that occasionally locks me out of 2nd and 3rd. (Brand new clutch, though! ) There is plenty of room for improvement and a definite excuse for an exhaust fab. (Looking at the triple-Y header set for this one since the 4-2-1 wasn't worth much more than noise on my Lizzie, the 2002.) That helps justify this build, whatever meager bit it might amount to.
I have a goal of making this a reliable sleeper. I don't need to be told to go turbo, because I don't care. I'm strapping a supercharger onto this motor (maybe both motors if it goes well) and that's just how it will be.
What I need to know is as follows:
What is the base compression ratio for the 4G94, and how can I raise or lower it to maintain nothing more than an 11:1 effective ratio on 8 or 10 pounds of boost? What compression ratios does the motor seem to operate best at? I am trying to tune to run on 87 (...or 89), so if necessary, water injection is an option. I'm really green when it comes to forced induction, but I understand what is going on.
What is speed density and how does it work? I understand that it eliminates the restrictions imposed by the MAF sensor, and that it seems to allow for a greater range of tuning. (Saving for a tactrix cable and ECUflash.)
*How does speed density tuning affect fuel economy?
Would a stock Evo VIII fuel pump be enough to cope with 8-10lbs of boost? What about injectors? There is a guy local selling the fuel pump for $20. I have bought the stock motor mounts from the guy, and it's legitimately in good condition. He has kept his stuff well, and I just want to make sure I've got the right idea with going for that fuel pump versus a Walbro 255 pump (for now, at least).
Where and can I even get a flange for the intake manifold? I plan to port heads to gasket and fabricate a manifold for whatever S/C unit I find. Fabrication is no problem for me. Free time to research is, however.
I have seen a mirage 4G92 with what appeared to be an Eaton M45 unit installed underhood with a mostly stock appearance, but the car was from Austrailia and seems to be a ghost on whatever browsers I can find. All I know is that it looked clean and snug in the bay.
If anyone can think of anything that I might not have mentioned that really needs to be considered, please, DROP IT BY. It can't hurt to say, "Hey, Chris, did you think of this?" I'm open to suggestions! (unless they're turbo)
Crankswick has been a good help in guiding me halfway-straight in my ventures on the forums. Let me give him a shoutout before I forget! Thanks, dude!
I'd rather not drop copious amounts of money on parts until I know a little bit more about what I am doing. Also, between 2 jobs, money is and is not an issue. It will just take time.
If someone would be so kind as to move this post if it is in the wrong section, I would really appreciate it. I'm dead serious about building this car. My girlfriend loves this little car and I want it to back her bite.
That is Amby's Super FAQ, the first paragraph states the Comp ratio is 9.5:1.
Based upon this chart you would need to lower your ratio A LOT. to do so would require shorter rods, and dished pistons.
I don't really think you would need speed density. That and im not positive you would be able to utilize the MAP sensor when your essentially replacing the Intake plenum with the supercharger.
My thought is - clearance for the pulley on the intake side of the motor. There isn't a ton of room on the topside of the engine with the strut tower and AC/Power Steering lines there. Also, the weight of the Supercharger is much greater than the OE manifold. You would need to support it to the block somehow.
Another way I was interested in for mounting, would be right over top of the headers. Use the pulley for power steering, you could use a front mount and the OE manifold. Would need to be creative with the mounting though. You might have to cut the hood a little but that would look pretty badA to me.
Based upon this chart you would need to lower your ratio A LOT. to do so would require shorter rods, and dished pistons.
Yeah, I figured as much. What I was considering, for sole reason of cost, was to see if I could use other engines' rods/pistons combined however they'll work and MAYBE get the cylinders overbored a little. Definitely thinking of a ton of ways to reduce the compression ratio. Looking at that chart, I am wondering if I shouldn't adjust my goal down to 6 or 8 pounds instead of 8 or 10. A 6:1 static compression ratio does not sound like a very good idea, but I could be wrong.
Originally Posted by 03OZstocker
I don't really think you would need speed density. That and im not positive you would be able to utilize the MAP sensor when your essentially replacing the Intake plenum with the supercharger.
I was actually thinking more along the lines of installing the MAP after the supercharger on a custom manifold. with injectors across the bottom for space on the top side. The convection from the compressor should negate any crazy effects from running bottom-feeding injectors, right? That custom manifold's why I asked about a flange for the intake side. If all else fails, I have a few manifolds laying around out here. It wouldn't be anything to have to make my own flange, I don't think. Fun time with a welder, a holesaw, and a pipe bender haha
Originally Posted by 03OZstocker
My thought is - clearance for the pulley on the intake side of the motor. There isn't a ton of room on the topside of the engine with the strut tower and AC/Power Steering lines there. Also, the weight of the Supercharger is much greater than the OE manifold. You would need to support it to the block somehow.
Another way I was interested in for mounting, would be right over top of the headers. Use the pulley for power steering, you could use a front mount and the OE manifold. Would need to be creative with the mounting though. You might have to cut the hood a little but that would look pretty badA to me.
There's actually quite a bit of usable room there. I was thinking of allowing the alternator to maintain its role as the tensioner and adding the supercharger pulley above it with an additional carrier to hold tension or the right track, or to kick it out a little further, if at all possible, and tie it in on the serpentine belt's track. The support wouldn't be an issue because the goal is to create a stock fit to the old bracket, even if it means sourcing something shorter that will fit, like (I believe) the 4G93 Mirage engine's intake support bracket. Front mount over the exhaust manifold just sounds like a bad idea. compressor=heat+exhaust=HEAT+intake=knock. Just the way I was thinking. I had considered it, though. The 2005 does have a little more room in the front due to the body update from 2004.
Additionally, I'm looking at making a new battery tray to better-facilitate an intake through either the fog light cutout or the turn signal bulb, but I'm not sure which. Finding or crafting an air box for that will be the hardest part. I believe that I have something that will work, being in the form of a 350Z stock box from a buddy I used to work with, but only time will tell.
If our motors can hold 12Psi of turbo boost with stock internals (with proper fuel and tune). I think they could manage 8psi of a supercharger instead. Since superchargers "steal horsepower" to make horsepower it would be backwards to lower compression honestly. If you were to attempt to lower the compression ratio with rods/pistons you would effectively lower the BHP more thus lowering the ultimate goal of more horsepower, especially to a number like 6:1. I would recommend new rods/pistons still but stay with a stock size, but of course get forged.
Pick that evo 8 fuel pump up. For $20 why not, and if you end up needing more fuel later on, buy a bigger pump. I got my wally255 for $50 used.
I would also look into the Air to water aftercoolers the Cobalt SS' have. They basically sit right between the charger, and manifold and have coolant flowing through it to cool the charge.
I cannot find a place to buy a manifold flange. If you have a few manifolds laying around play with them and slice the runners off and weld up some new runners. For me when it comes to mounting the charger it would be A LOT of trying and failing, with many different attempts at getting it all lined up properly.
I don't think getting the airbox setup would be too difficult. Relocate the battery to the trunk, and then you have all the room in the world on the drivers side for an airbox. I would just use a cone filter and some silicone couplers, especially if you are set on going speed density.
This is a totally unique idea and I want you to succeed lmao. I've been toying with the idea of a supercharger on all my cars. I looked into it rather extensively when I had my 1990 Nonturbo Galant GSX. Its not unheard of honestly, but its a whole different platform with much less support for us lancer guys being the bastard little brother of the EVO.
I guess you have a better point. I'm sure that there is room to get somewhat into boost before I end up needing higher octane fuel, as well, which needs research in its own right. Temperature, point of injection, level of atomization in the charge, as well as the geometry of the combustion chamber may all need some digging to be done. *Adds to the ever-growing list of....stuff.*
If he's still got it, I'll have it in my hand this weekend, Lord willing. Thanks!
I was thinking about pricing some nitrogen or other cold thing to attempt to circulate around the runners so that the heat can be taken from the charge. I figure that even 2 extra degrees on the boiling scale is worth a shot at. (Liquid nitrogen is something I am unfamiliar with in general. If it is as cold as it appears to be, that could keep my intake charge at or below freezing at all times. In terms of reliability, it is most likely a very bad idea.) *Adds to the list...again.*
I figured that I may have to go the route of total fabrication from the get-go. Thankfully, I'm pretty good with a grinder and am getting better with a welder. Local machine shops shouldn't be too outrageous for just cutting holes in a flange.
Battery in the trunk isn't a mod I have ever been a big fan of, even on cars with the battery in the back from the factory. Weight distribution may benefit, but changing and charging get confusing and laborious. I've already gotten a battery tray from that EvoTuna guy and am just going to make a mounting plate that will allow me to mount it perpendicular to the stock orientation. More fun time with a welder haha As for the air box, I may check the fit on the front end of a mustang or Ranger air filter housing to the space behind the headlight. If it would not be a great hassle to get one in there, then I can get a large cone-shaped filter in addition to having it enclosed and pulling from the cold air inlet. In fact, someone recently gave me a perfect length of piping that they had laying around from one of the many junkers that they buy and sell. I'll start posting pics once I get started on sourcing more stuff, like the supercharger, itself.
I have been toying around with the idea of a supercharger since I had my first car, a Honda Accord with the F23B engine in it. The A/C compressor was trash and I was always looking for more power from that poor motor. Looked like the perfect place to throw a blower. We sold the car before I could get around to that haha. The thing that makes this hardest is that, unless you know the part number or exactly what it is that you are looking for, the search engines available to us interchange "supercharger" with "turbo" and "turbocharger," especially when the turbos are more go-to than the blowers.
There is so much research to be done its not even funny. The list never really ends, even once you start the build, it keeps going because there was something that was overlooked no matter how insignificant it may have seemed lmao.
Was it a small battery tray? Those turn the battery perpendicular, as well as give you opportunity to use a super small battery with a ton of room in the bay.
When searching may use the +superchager and -turbo/turbocharger, so the engine only finds superchrager rather than turbo? It may help or might not, its helped pretty decently for me so far.
I wanted to supercharge my old 86 Isuzu pup. IT had a perfect setup for it, to use a front mount with a roots blower over top of the headers. the AC compressor was right there and didn't work, so I was going to rip that off and fab up some mounting and run intercooler piping everywhere and blow thru a weber carb. It would've been slow still and I probably would've blown it up lol.
Two things : forget the supercharger unless you already have it. They're super rare for the 4g94 now. And 2 try to stick with the regular battery until you're done tuning. The mini battery doesn't have enough juice to flash the ecu. Not fun when you try to flash away from home, trust me.
I hate to tell you but turbo is the only way to make power on the lancer. That's just my.02 cents. Take it or leave it.
There is so much research to be done its not even funny. The list never really ends, even once you start the build, it keeps going because there was something that was overlooked no matter how insignificant it may have seemed lmao.
Was it a small battery tray? Those turn the battery perpendicular, as well as give you opportunity to use a super small battery with a ton of room in the bay.
When searching may use the +superchager and -turbo/turbocharger, so the engine only finds superchrager rather than turbo? It may help or might not, its helped pretty decently for me so far.
I wanted to supercharge my old 86 Isuzu pup. IT had a perfect setup for it, to use a front mount with a roots blower over top of the headers. the AC compressor was right there and didn't work, so I was going to rip that off and fab up some mounting and run intercooler piping everywhere and blow thru a weber carb. It would've been slow still and I probably would've blown it up lol.
I know how the list goes. It's always fun.
Full size battery. I don't trust a small one.
I will probably try searching like that once once I get my laptop back. I knew about the - function, but not the + one.
That sounds like it would have been a fun headache. I would've gone for it.
Originally Posted by jakermeister
Two things : forget the supercharger unless you already have it. They're super rare for the 4g94 now. And 2 try to stick with the regular battery until you're done tuning. The mini battery doesn't have enough juice to flash the ecu. Not fun when you try to flash away from home, trust me.
I hate to tell you but turbo is the only way to make power on the lancer. That's just my.02 cents. Take it or leave it.
Dude. The M45 and M62 chargers are Eaton units used very commonly on non-Mitsu cars. I don't want to even consider someone else's kit for it. That takes the fun out.
I'm glad you spent your two cents. Turbo is a way to make power. The reason that Mini used a supercharger for so many years was that it worked, not because it was exceptionally powerful. To add to that, I'm looking for two things with this: implicit appearance and fuel/reliability. I'm not trying to build a 1,000 BHP drag monster out of this (twin charged with twin turbos, if I did, if only to prove that it could be done.) Go back and read up, dude. When's the last time you went against the grain?
Lol go back and read up? I've probably read almost every thread here. I've been here since the "piggyback" was the best thing for our lancers. I'm sure you could supercharge your lancer but for the price and time it's not worth it. Many of us have been turbo for years and have reliable lancers. The lancer is very resilient and reliable in my opinion. But...... It's a family car. In retrospect if I were to go for performance on a budget I would've bought a gsx. It's great superchargers work for minis but this is a lancer. It's an entirely different engine. If YOU want to go back and read you can see there were only a handful of supercharged lancers. Turbo is more cost effective and easier to build. Good luck with your build and I certainly hope you make it. I haven't seen a supercharged lancer in years and it would be interesting to see another.
Jakermeister, I didn't mean for you to read back on the forums. I meant to refer back to my initial post. I actually need the experience and knowledge of members like you because this option isn't one that has no the been raped and pillaged for any inkling of power like a turbo has. There are guys on the forums who could probably strap a 150mm Turbo onto the 4G94 and make it work for a pass at the strip.
I understand that. I also understand that the Mini engine is totally different from our humble econobox, especially when you consider that it was built with the supercharger in mind from the very beginning. In all honesty, if I could pursue ultimate power on a limitless budget, I probably would go turbo on the largest engine I could drop into the Lancer's body.. Atleast one turbo, just because of the fact that I love the whine. The reason that I am pursuant of the supercharger is exactly as you have noted: no one does it anymore. No one has real function in mind where I live. They just do what everyone else does because it seems cool. The guys who know what they're doing, though, you can just listen to them crank up and you know that they mean business. My 2wd Lancer will never be the AWD beast that is the Evolution, not unless I come into a stupid amount of money. I don't need to max the engine, either, and a turbo will tempt the living crap out of me until I "push the button" and blow it up.
Thank you for your input, and yes, I do need to read the forums on this. I know that. It might even make my life easier if I do that. I haven't had the chance between work and some other stuff going on.
SPEAKING OF WHICH, this has been placed on the back-burner until the motor I am running now begins to smoke. Drafting and planning will continue, but money is needed elsewhere. The harmonic balancer failed and MAY have damaged the crankshaft slightly. Only time will tell. In any case, it does give me a great opportunity to start planning more extensively. In looking for a replacement, it saddens me to see that there are no dampened aluminum replacements for the 4g94, or even the 4g93, that might be readily available in the States. (PLEASE, correct me if I am wrong, because the thirst for aluminum is real.) Anyway, please stay aboard here with me. I hope that this takes a while so that it goes right the first time, and at the same time, I hope that something pushes me to need the rebuild sooner. My budget will always be fighting my heart haha Anyway, Thanks again, guys. I hope I don't let you down this time with providing results! The 3.8 swap I dreamt up last year was a real long-shot, but it is definitely possible. Even so, it would be worthless in a front-wheel car without a serious LSD and some drag radials. Wheel spin for days haha Dead seriously this time. Please, anything helps, even criticism!
Okay, after some thinking and delegation within myself, I have decided that I don't care about fuel nearly as much as I thought I did. Called a shop today to ask where to start while I'm getting my things together, and was told that they just wouldn't start. Figured I'd hear as much.
Anyway, I'm dead serious about doing this. I have been debating, though. Being that there are a great number of FWD cars with similarly-sized engines that wouldn't be terribly hard to fabricate mounting for, what suggestions do you guys have for possible engines to change over to?
If I can get a better starting place, I think it's worth it. I know for a fact that the Lancer's 4G94 doesn't respond very well at all to any bolt-on modifications. That's been proven a hundred times over. I think I've made it clear that I'd love to build the life into one, but as it has been said, the cost of that is unreal. Also, there's practically no one local that will even touch them in terms of tuning. Evos all day, but the base Lancer gets no love.
On the ever-improving bright side: talking to a guy right now with an OZ parts car w/ <100k, good parts all the way around. I figure it's a good starting point for suspension and brakes on the ES.
Sorry if my post sounded harsh. It's great you're trying to have fun with your lancer. I/ we here try to steer you in the right direction. In retrospect I feel like a wasted money and should have put it toward another build. I did however learn a lot! What I learned probably saved me about as much as I put into my car plus more. The lancer has a good engine but it's limited in power with the thin block. I've read of individuals making it to about 300-350hp but I really don't see anyone pushing past that. A 300hp daily driver would be amazing. I think if you're serious you should probably look into tuning it yourself. It's a lot of reading but in the end it'll be worth it. There's a evo 8/9 manual the evo owners put together. Search for it and read it. The tuning is EXACTLY the same as evo's. Don't let the tuning aspect scare you. You can tweak your stock car by getting the tactrix cable and messing with your car now. I started by doing some runs and monitoring knock. If I seen a knock register I would work that area out until I got no knock then and slowly advanced the timing. I think I made about 5hp doing that which built my confidence. These forums are really dead now but there's a wealth of information here. You just gotta look. I'll do my best to check in once in a while. Jake.
Sorry if my post sounded harsh. It's great you're trying to have fun with your lancer. I/ we here try to steer you in the right direction. In retrospect I feel like a wasted money and should have put it toward another build. I did however learn a lot! What I learned probably saved me about as much as I put into my car plus more. The lancer has a good engine but it's limited in power with the thin block. I've read of individuals making it to about 300-350hp but I really don't see anyone pushing past that. A 300hp daily driver would be amazing. I think if you're serious you should probably look into tuning it yourself. It's a lot of reading but in the end it'll be worth it. There's a evo 8/9 manual the evo owners put together. Search for it and read it. The tuning is EXACTLY the same as evo's. Don't let the tuning aspect scare you. You can tweak your stock car by getting the tactrix cable and messing with your car now. I started by doing some runs and monitoring knock. If I seen a knock register I would work that area out until I got no knock then and slowly advanced the timing. I think I made about 5hp doing that which built my confidence. These forums are really dead now but there's a wealth of information here. You just gotta look. I'll do my best to check in once in a while. Jake.
Nah, Jake, it’s no big deal. I see now that the forums are pretty much beat. Even the guy, Conrad, with the R35 driveline in his Evo IX, even he hasn’t had a lot of action despite the excitement that he was greeted with.The motor in the ‘04 (yeah, mistake on the title. VIN produces a 2004.) has just started to burn some oil lately, so I’ve been digging all night on ways to go with this build. So far, importing a Pajero DOHC GDI 4G94 looks like a decent way to go, but only because I know a couple of people. Really wish I had a contact in Japan, though, because finding an engine or just the cylinder head that I need would be good. I actually have a brand new set of pistons here at the house from a VW 1.8t with 19mm wrist pins and I did the figures on CR in the 4G92 block, but I won’t be able to say for sure if they’d work. The 92 rods on the 94 crank with the pistons meeting perfectly at their original height in the cylinder (pistons having to be 9.15mm shorter) hold yield a 13.5:1 compression ratio. Even if I can shave off 11.4mm from the piston height, I’ll still have a CR of 11.45:1. I’ll get real measurements on the pistons later and get actual numbers before going further. New concerns arise from the use of DOHC and GDI. Definitely going to look into using a harness and ECU from EvoTuna if he has one when the time comes around for me to finally take the dive on this one. Next point of preparation will be determining part interchangeability on the foreign heads versus the parts I have available US domestic. After that, I might just play around with the supercharger, but odds are that I’ll end up using the K03 from that VW engine OR one of the tractor turbochargers I have here at the house. Don’t think i’m Running something like is on a Mack truck! Those have inlets around 5” and outlet around 2.75”” on the compressor and can build upward of 50PSI. Not for me! These are Perkins 2674A200 turbos, 2” in and out, 3” exhaust dump, 2” exhaust inlet. Thanks for the concern, again. Hopefully this will go all the way and turn into something awesome. In the meantime, stay blessed! God’s gonna put together something wonderful!
Whole kit already produced 3600$ RIPP modification inc. 218-230 hp look it up. Many people do it to eclipses and outlanders , I have even saw an Evo with a supercharged / turbo combination .
Apr 24, 2017, 05:55 PM
CJBarker2's S/C Sleeper
) There is plenty of room for improvement and a definite excuse for an exhaust fab. (Looking at the triple-Y header set for this one since the 4-2-1 wasn't worth much more than noise on my Lizzie, the 2002.) That helps justify this build, whatever meager bit it might amount to.
